to shout at my student son for getting low marks at university

[bluehaze]

Son in first term at uni doing biochemistry. He is getting 50% marks for his lab reports. Yesterday I shouted and ranted about him having low standards, never going to get through the year, not taking university seriously etc. He does have a history of not working hard and only doing the minimum. Then I talked to a friend who said well thats about right for university marks, and nobody gets really high marks. Now I'm not sure if I was really unreasonable or whether those kinds of marks are really OK. Anyone else got any idea? For the future I want to be sure that if he's doing fine then he gets some praise for it, but then again I don't want to let it go if he's coasting along. Yes I could stay out of it and let him learn from his mistakes etc, but its taken a lot of hard work for him to get there in the first place - has bad dyslexia - and I don't want him to throw the opportunity away if a bit of timely pressure from me will make a difference!
sitting on the fence here - leave him to it, say 'well done' or nag him to do better ?

He is passing his coursework and the marks will not count towards his final degree. It will probably be something like 40% and 60% counted towards the final degree rating in years 2 and 3.

Do not yell at him as he you may find yourself not being informed of any of his future marks as he doesn't have to tell you.

Just say you are glad he has passed, hope it's going well is there anything he needs and that he does need to start to focus more.

His attendance and deadlines matter and just ask in a subtle way if he is making it to everything and giving everything in on time.

Has he informed the University of his dyslexia as he can be given extra time in exams and possibly have extensions on essays.

I have had students turn up drunk and all sorts, small amount of slacking in term 1 is fine.

Agree with everyone else. 40% pass, eg third, 60% for a 2:1. So 50% is probably a2:2. You can't compare it to other types of studies where 90% might be achievable. And the first year doesn't usually count or is a low percentage. And the first term at uni has to be a big learning curve, probably first time living away from home, as well as more independent study.

If, however, you feel like he has been slacking off for other reasons, now is the time to start reading the riot act so it doesn't affect his degree classification.

Did you go to uni, OP? Were you actually expecting results to be in the 80s/90s?

'First year doesn't count' is risky advice. If you're at Cambridge it very much counts. And a bit of a waste of 9k if you're not going to make the most of it!

But it is a big adjustment. He needs to be accessing support for his dyslexia.

I don't think shouting helps. I failed two modules in my first year at uni and had to retake them in the summer. Lucky all you have to do in the first year is pass.

I'd be asking him if he finding it hard. I'm dyslexic to by the way. There was way less support at uni, but has he found the support services as we had to seek them out ourselves. This was an issue for me and took a while for me to work out. Luckily I was also doing sciences which is less hard on the essay writing side. But lab can be demanding are his tutors aware of his dyslexia? If you haven't had to do it before lab books have to be kept in specific formats which isn't natral. I had a head start from the collage course I did but many didn't and our lab teacher at uni was harsh.

I think this is normal for kids in the first term!!

Marks in the 50s aren't that bad. The percentage thing is a bit strange. It is notionally out of 100, but many universities really mark out of 80 for all practical purposes. Some lecturers may give higher than that, others simply won't. So one person's 80 is another person's 100. Confusing and odd, I know. To make it still more strange, some departments only give set marks on a scale, so while it looks like it's out of 100, in actual numbers the essay will be graded a 52 or a 55 or a 58.

Marking is more impressionistic, especially for essays, than you might think - but hopefully experience and moderation and external checks mean that things are consistent.

It sort of evens out because of the grade boundaries per course and the way that overall grades are calculated. To give you a rough idea, in most places 70-80 is a first, 60-70 is a 2:1 and 50-60 is a 2:2. However, the final degree certification will also depend on the distribution of the marks, so actually, a certain number of courses above about 68 will be enough for a first.

On a more personal note, I doubt that yelling at your son will do much good. He's away from home for the first time and enjoying a wonderful experience. I worry a lot that kids now are under so much pressure that they don't actually get the chance to experiment (personally or intellectually) at university. And if they lose that, they lose something very valuable about the whole experience, because they can become so obsessed with marks (my colleagues and I jokingly call them Marksists) that they actually turn into the kind of boring, mediocre students who keep their noses clean and end up with a high 2:1, but without any flair, personality, creativity, or originality. They are transformed into identikit units for the graduate workplace, like units on a production line - and there is so much, so very much more to life than that. I also see far more anxiety in these kids now than I did 10 years ago, and this makes me worry a bit for their long term mental health.

That's a 2:2. Which isn't that bad, surely?!

imustgodowntothesee what pps are referring to when they say first year doesn't count is the fact that your marks in first year are not counted towards your degree final. Of course you have to pass, and you're more likely to get a higher class degree if you do better in first year, but it's not exactly going to bring his average down or anything.

OP i'm sorry, i know 6th form to uni is a bit of a leap and so marks in the 50s seem very low but i'm afraid i think you were being completely U. If his tutors are concerned they'll do the shouting!

How would you even know?

I'm sure my Mum didn't know diddly about my marks at university, until the degree one at the end.

You are missing the point. Pupils are spoonfed at school; they are independent, autonomous students at University. They are no longer just learning facts; they are learning how to learn, learning how to self-manage. He will not get that if you are trying to micromanage him. Back off and give him the space to grow up, in his own way and in his own time.

"A man who never makes a mistake will never make anything."

Ok yes I take on board that shouting was misjudged and I should have been the more adult one. A better approach is definitely HelenluvsRob to find out how those marks compare with his classmates, and to be grateful that he even tells me his marks Mehitabel6!

Ragwort I also feel that though he is technically an adult - he's not really an independent adult and is reliant on funding from home so there needs to be some sort of accountability still. I quite like Mysteryfla idea re incentives!

Moonax hit the nail on the head too I think its more about my own expectations.

Thanks all - I needed a good outside perspective! So when I pick him up this week I am going to keep silent about marks, try to work out if he is struggling and needs any dyslexia support (he doesn't get any his choice), be grateful that he still communicates with me, and just generally try to let go … he's developing into an independent adult and really IS doing OK!

(I should add that this is all why you shouldn't pay too much attention to the comparison of marks between institutions - because it really does work differently in different places. Consistency is what matters - basically, a really gifted student will be getting a first on everything, every time, by whatever standards the institution they're at employs. This is one of the reasons quite a lot of places have introduced the category of a starred first, or first with distinction).

I got 70+ for all my first year essays in the 90s. Have Unis really changed that much?

He's a grown up now and ultimately it's up to him how seriously he takes his studies. But as a parent I suspect that you're not the only one trying to impress on their young adult child that a situation is serious.

Just to add that I am really grateful for all your replies. I have been getting myself over worked up about it - I really DID lack perspective!

I would try and persuade him to get the dyslexia support- it makes sense to take what is offered.

It is hard bluehaze suddenly you don't know anything unless they choose to tell you. Finances is another area, you can't know the state of them unless they tell you.

It's very, very unusual for a student to get anything above a 70% - only the true high fliers do. So, really, he is being marked out of 70, in which case 50/70 is not bad at all.

I much prefer the Open Uni's method of marking - they really do allocate grades between 0-100% and everyone has a chance of getting up there in the 80s and 90s.

I am friends with some tutors and lecturers at both the OU and regular universities and we have talked about this quite a lot. I once gave them the same paper to mark (yes we know how to have fun!). The OU tutor marked it at 79 while the other tutor marked it at a 64.

Bloody hell. I don't think I ever discussed my grades at uni with my parents, nor did they ask - and they were paying my grant. Presumably you're funding him because you want to (is he not getting any student loans)? It really is mine if your business especially when you haven't a clue what his marks mean. And he may not know what his classmates are getting - I didnt. It's not school where you compare your homework.

You should be able to look online at the students handbook to see what the marks breakdown is for each year.

I tell all mine in the first year that they should be walking on air if they get a mark in the 60s in their first assignments - 50s is normal.

If I could choose a thing to know about and be concerned about, it would be whether dd is attending everything and engaging. If she is, she'll probably do well in the end. If not, not. But I accept that's not my business any more either....

Ds gets an anonymous breakdown of marks for each piece of work he does showing how many students fall into each marking band. On the most recent one about a dozen got over 70, 4 over 80. The vast majority were between 50 and 60. For another piece of work 64 was the highest given, for another anyone getting over 50 had done very well. So a mark around 50 doesn't necessarily mean he hasn't done well iyswim.

Usually first year labs and course work don't count towards the final degree classification - you just have to get through the year, and not get turfed out with the duffers and slackers.

I was averaging a C for my labs, but my tutor told me to concentrate on the other course work and exams, and I ended up with a 2(i) which I was happy with. The final year is when it really matters.

Its only the first term - give the boy a break!

He's either done the minimum or worked hard because of his dyslexia, which is it exactly, OP?

YABU by the way. He's an adult.

50% is okay-ish. It's just a 2, ii. The pass mark for an Honours degree is 40% - that would give you Third Class Honours. Not great - it used to be known as a Gentleman's Third, for those 'gentlemen' who wouldn't need to go on and work for their livings.

First year marks generally don't count towards the degree result, but they are an indication of how well a student is doing. So YANBU for being concerned, but really? It's his life now, if he wants to throw away a perfectly good opportunity to do well and actually LEARN - which is far more important than the actual marks - then that is his lookout now.

Marks are only an indication of the efficacy of a student's learning - not an end in themselves. If he's being this desultory & careless in his first year first term, then he's going to struggle in 2nd & 3rd year. But that's his problem. And his tutor's it's his tutor I feel sorry for, if this is an able student who's just not working. It's such a waste.

I did a lot of biochemistry at a red brick in the mid 90s. I tended to get between 55 to 65% for my coursework and exams. I got a 2:2 in the end.
Anything over 70% is amazing - that's what you need to get a first. As it's his first term I think getting around 50 is fine. Students tend to 'accelerate' and improve their performance as they go through the course. They can specialise and do stuff they are more interested in later on as well.
Also, I never told my parents my marks for coursework / exams etc, jsut whether I had passed or not. I think you need to back off a bit! As has already been mentioned, it is a different learning environment at University, it will take him time to adjust to it. I know people who failed exams in their first year but went on to get 2:1s.

I haven't even read your post because your title already shows how ridiculous you're being. He's an adult

Flobberty, OU has the same standards as other universities though, just different numbers for them; 85% is a first at the OU, 70% at other universities. It is still rare to get 85% + at the OU.
79% & 64% are equivalent because they are both a mid 2/1.

OP, I wouldn't worry abut the first year too much. It is when students are finding their feet.