Nativity and child protection issue

[DrMum83]

AIBU?

An acquaintance on Facebook (girl I went to primary school with) has posted a video of her child in the school nativity play. Her mother (the GM) has then shared it on her Facebook. The acquaintance commented that 'I know some people are against videos of children but it's largely focused on DS and its a sad world we live in if I can't do that'.

One of her friends commented that there are child protection issues surrounding this and that at her daughter's school, they are specifically requested to not video the play or post on social media photos of other kids. My acquaintance retorted with 'the headmaster announced at the beginning of the play that video taking is allowed as long as no parents present object'

This rang alarm bells for me.

A) as part of my role at work, I am involved with safeguarding children. Children can be found on fb and hunted down by parents when in care and this can be disastrous.
B) 'no parents present object' what about the parents not present? And what about those sharing the video forward (as in this case)?

I have managed to find the name of school and have typed a letter to headmaster. He may think I'm an interfering busybody but would I be unreasonable to send it?!

Thoughts?

Hawest, I'll ask again, what if I don't want to share my kid's business with half the school?

I'm friends with a bunch of school mums, IRL and on FB. Not one of them knows my DC's history. Nor will they.

Hawest, I think you are simply not getting the issue. What your school currently does is meaningless to the discussion. They obviously don't rate child protection highly or simply don't yet have any children in the school that need protecting so haven't put policies in place.

Hawest I'm pretty shocked at your naivety. People have all sorts going on that you will no nothing about. If foster children are not removed from pictures, or 'everyone' knows about them, their foster carers sound somewhat negligent.

I also wanted to address the various posts saying 'we have none of those people/ these things happening round here'. Birth parents can be from all walks of life. People's lives change, sometimes for the better. Children are removed less due to political change in the care system than a few years ago - immediately post baby P the clause of "at risk of emotional harm" was common. That line is hard to draw and many more children were placed for adoption. If you can remove a child when no harm has been done but they are at risk of it, then you have birth parents feeling desperate and judged, as we saw with the various class actions and protests around "forced adoption" 2-3 years ago. These birth parents may work, they may have a clear DBS, they may be acquaintances of yours. You can't say you have none of "those people" because they are unidentifiable.

I'm wittering - in short you just don't know and shouldn't presume; no one should have to stand up and say I object; no one should put other people's children on FB.

Well I do apologise for sharing my personal experience & opinions. We have a foster home in our town, small town big mouths, everyone knows everyone's business wether they want it shared or not. I can tell u which families have adopted, which have fostered, who's kid has which behavioural issues, same with the majority of the town. At our school we have at least 10-15mins before class starts to speak to other parents & generally things are shared & if they aren't shared in person they are shared via social media. We are a close town we look after our own, if someone has issues they share & we all try to help, wether it be sick kiddies to wars with ex's. Our experience is a problem shared is a problem halved, therefore is any parents had a problem with anything they would tell us. Our school has a very distinct school uniform yet non of us have had any objection to photos being shared in the paper, on our local news website, on our local news Facebook page, etc etc. only saying that proud parents shouldn't be punished for sharing the moments they are proud of. I've got a million & one pictures (slight over exaggeration) of my kids from birthday parties, nursery, playgroups, mum & toddler group etc etc including my own children & their friends & never once came across any issue whatsoever with sharing. When attend others birthday parties parents have said things like 'please wait until we share pictures before u do' not a problem! But never been told 'do not post atall'

there are issues regarding children fleeing dv, under protection orders and in foster care/have been adopted etc and may have family of origin trying to find them.

Surely in all those cases the school would have been told and wouldn't allow any photography? The parents/foster parents involved would have to be mad not to make sure the school knew, otherwise their children's pictures could end up on the school's website/Facebook page.

Hawest I see where you are coming from, and I get that you truly believe no harm is being done and it may be the case that there actually aren't any children who need their identities protected currently in your school. But you seriously can't believe you have any idea what goes on behind closed doors in your community. Unless you are the local social worker (and even then ypu wouldnt know everything) I am absolutely certain that the gossip you hear doesn't even touch the sides of the reality for the worst off members of your community.

Not necessarily. There are families fleeing dv that haven't made it official. Sometimes because they don't think they'll be believed, sometimes because the abuser has a position of power in the wider community, sometimes because the law is an ass and absurd can be wily and leave no evidence!

There's also eg on this thread where schools have messed up and forgotten they have children who's parents have said they can't have their pics shared.

Hawest I'd be extremely surprised if all you've said is true. I also live in a small town in Scotland. (Use of p1 suggests you're in Scotland too?)

Afaik the law/guidelines regarding sharing of information on children in foster care is the same as England, it's not responsible fostering.

I'd even go ax far as saying you can't possibly know that every single child in your council area was in the newspaper photos.

Tanith - You posted "soldiers kidnapped and tortured and executed" as an "incident, not a what if", even though no soldier has been harmed as a result of their child being on social media, it has not happened. So that part of your statement is indeed scaremongering froth.

Hawest - it's lovely if that really is the case.
But what you have done is basically say "This is my experience - all I'm doing is posting about that." Which is fine. But at the bottom of your first post you extrapolated from that to say "It's just a video, nothing dodgy - it will be fine"
Your personal experience is not the same as that of others. Read the thread and there are lots of stories of kids at risk in one way or another. Just because, as far as you know, it is not something that is an issue in your school doesn't mean that it isn't a real risk for some people.

It's that sort of "I'm all right Jack, start that engine" attitude that causes the problem. Everyone starts with a point of view based on their own experience. But in this sort of situation being able to listen and understand that not everyone is in the same, lucky, position as you is key.

Posting videos on social media isn't a problem for you. Excellent. It is for others. You may not know who they are and they may not want to/be able to publicly say so. It doesn't make it a non-issue. It makes it imperative that we all understand that their stories and risks are real and that we can either choose to put them in further danger or not. And the whole point is that you will never know the result of your choices.....

Dipand, but one of the concerns is parents ignoring that request because "they know the kids in their school and they just know there's no issues like that for any of them and anyway it's their right (possibly as stated in the Geneva Convention) to post the photos they take on social media and if there are any of these kids in the school they shouldn't even be in the play because they are getting in the way of the photo opportunities..."

I assume in your role you are dbs checked and within that the agreement we make once cleared and we work in an environment that adopts a safeguarding policy, you agree to protect ALL children, not just those you are directly involved in. So you have a responsibility. However, not knowing the area or background of the children (which you may do), it's a bit extreme to assume that this poses an immediate potential for kidnap or breach of court order? The schools safeguarding policy should be accessible to yourself. Read up on it. Then drop them an email about concerns buy I wouldn't use breaching of court orders or anything like that as an example.

I don't give two shits about who sees my children on social media.

They are seen by thousands of people every week in the flesh when they walk down a busy high street to school. As I live in a very heavily populated and dodgy area with a highly mobile population I have no doubt they have been looked at by paedophiles, possibly on multiple occasions. How does social media put them at any more risk than they are already at?

I appreciate that hiding children's identity from dangerous relatives in case of custody/witness protection issues is important. I would very much like to know the figures for this - how often children have been identified through social media prior to restrictions being put in place by schools. According to mn wisdom this is frequent enough to justify a school ban on the posting of video/photos. I'd just like to know more before I get myself worked up into a state of righteous indignation about it.

Hawest - not every foster or adopted child is at risk from their family, but some are.

So you can't say that 'the foster children I know have their photos in the paper, so it's OK for all foster children'.

Luckily we don't have security concerns for DD, but I have friends with children whose birth family is trying to find them - and the children are terrified that they might be found. Birth parents who have been convicted of violent offences and finished their prison sentence, have been involved in gangs implicated in murder, or have actively chosen to abuse and are furious that 'their' child (possession) has been taken away from them.

How many children being abducted or hurt would it take to justify a ban exactly? 1? 10? 100?

You might not care, thank your lucky stars you don't have to, many of us do.

Surely it's just common sense to not potentially put someone at risk when no harm will ever come to anyone from not being on social media.

In the year up to March 2015:
70,000 children in care
5,000 children adopted

www.baaf.org.uk/res/statengland

Past figures for adoption were lower, so assume 3,000 per year, and over the past 10 years 30,000 children were adopted – most adoptions are for children under 4, so assume 30,000 adopted children of school age.

Assume 10% of adopted children (usually those younger and more severely abused) and 5% of foster children are at risk. I think those are low percentages, but am being cautious because as an adoptive parent I do tend to hear a lot about security fears. But then, I have had friends who have had birth families track down children without intending harm, but turning the child’s life upside down and exacerbating mental health problems – the percentages would be a lot higher if we included that sort of harm, but most of this discussion seems to be about abduction/murder, so let’s stick with that.

So, in one year 3,000 adopted children and 3,500 foster children at serious risk = 7,500 children. Then those that are not in the care system, but are at risk because of dv. I couldn't even begin to guess how many...

And you have no way of knowing whether any of them are next to your little darling in the school play.

Most adoptions these days are open adoptions. Birth families know where they live and in some cases have contact. It is where a child is at serious risk that parents will not know where their child is.

I don't think that's right, cleaty. Most adoptions involve indirect contact (e.g. letters); some have direct contact. But I suspect in only a minority of cases the birth family knows where they live.

To be clear, we're not always talking about physical threat. In my own family's case, there is a risk of violence. But there's also the risk - which must be true of lots and lots of adoptive families - of birth family members just making contact because they care and desperately want to communicate with or see the child. Which would be a very, very big deal for many of the children. I shudder to think of how it would affect my daughter if that were to happen.

Most adoptions these days are open adoptions. Birth families know where they live

Nope.

It is a video from a proud parent, it's not as if it's anything dodgy! & im pretty sure if any parents of the children involved had any issues they could bring it up for themselves.

Hwest1 As a foster carer I would not be allowed to discuss any "issues" I had regarding my children with you. Ironically the more dangerous the situation the less anybody is able to know, including close family members. I realise not every placement foster carers have requires the same level of safeguarding, but with some, their lives would be literally at risk should anyone ever get to know which school they attended. And yes, their families, do search online for "innocent" school videos.

My friend has always complained about not being allowed to film her kids in plays, and says that the children who cant be photographed shouldn't take part in the play.

And I would tell your friend skyeskyeskye that my foster children have already lost their parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles, cousins, friends, security, home, innocence, toys, beds. clothes, possessions, they have suffered pain and loss, and the security of school and becoming part of the school community with new friends who know nothing of their past is perhaps the only thing they have to cling to. At school there are no emotional contact sessons, no solicitors, or guardians, or court cases, no social workers and the fear of being taken away again. At school they can, for a short while, just be one of the class able to enjoy and take part in all acitivites....but yes, remove them from the school plays, carol concerts, days out and class photos...after all your friend taking a photo of the school play far, far outways any foster children's safety.

Thanks for understanding though skyeskyeskye but I'm afraid I don't think much of your friend!

Most adoptions these days are open adoptions. Birth families know where they live

I have been an adoptive parent and foster carer for over 20 years and I have to say in my very limited experience, in the three areas I have lived and worked in, this is not true. Currently in my area none of the adoptions of children under 7 years are open. In our various meetings and courses we attend I do not know of any birth families who know where their adoptive family live. Though bear in mind a safe letterbox contact once a year can count as an open adoption. And even face to face contact sessions with foster children mostly take place in a neutral setting, sometimes far from the foster families home town. But I do realise that I only know about the areas I have adopted and fostered in.

And you have no way of knowing whether any of them are next to your little darling in the school play.

Absolutely!!

And Hawest I may live in your town, a very small town where everyone knows everyone else's business. I may be your next door neighbour, we may chat at the school gate...but you would not know of my history, you would not know which children I had adopted as babies, which were adopted later in life, which children were being fostered, which I gave birth to, and you would not know the history of the children I collect from school each day, other than what I chose to tell you...but I would not tell you, or tell anyone other than my closest family and friends...and if questioned I would probably make up some standard reply about childbirth or their young years. And you would never, ever know.