to not do sleep training?

[ppandj]

This has probably been done to death on here but I would like some advice- feel free to read or not even read and run if you want to.

DS is 7mo now and he sleeps like this;
bath, feed and cuddle before bed at around 7/7.30 put down in cot. He cries pretty much every 40 mins after that but settles when we go up to stroke his head or give him a quick cuddle which takes about 5 minutes.
Feed around 9.30/10pm then depending on how settled he is he usually comes into the bed with me (dp sleeping on sofa!)
He then sleeps in bed with me and wakes at 1am, 3am and then at 5am is awake for the day.
He has 3 naps per day, 2x 40mins and 1x 90mins if I'm holding him.

He is BF, has a dummy, sometimes rocked to sleep but only half the time- other half he falls asleep being held but not rocked. Never falls asleep alone in the cot.

Weaning is not going well but rather than be frustrated I'm trying to be lead by him and keep mealtimes/food as fun as possible.

I am working part time now doing 3 evenings per week so in that time dp does childcare often with help from pil. Then I get home at 11pm on those nights and feed DS and if necessary bring him into bed.

DP (understandably) doesn't want to sleep on the sofa, I don't want him to either. We would really like it if DS would sleep in his cot and for longer stretches of time but both of us do not want to sleep train if we can avoid it. I'm not asking for 10 hours straight- just a bit longer than 3 being the maximum.

Will he just grow out of this by himself? Is it the bfing? Have we indeed "made a rod for our own backs"? Am I being a bit pfb in wanting to avoid sleep training?

Sorry it was so long and thanks in advance if you can help.

There is no hurry to sleep train if you don't wish to at this point, 7 months is still little as far as I'm concerned. It might be useful to research different ways of helping a baby to settle in case you decide to change things a bit, there are gentler ways than CIO or Controlled Crying although most people I know have chosen one of these methods.

I didn't sleep train at all, other than a bit of 'Gradual Retreat' and my son sleeps through most nights now at 17 months. I think if I were you OP I'd work to my instincts and once you feel some sleep training might be useful, do it, until then, if it isn't broke then don't fix it!

He's not getting enough sleep. If he's crying every 40 mins and feeding every 2 hours he isn't getting into a deep sleep. I had shit sleepers, my eldest slept through at 3.5 so I'm not a hard core sleep trainer but he needs to get a proper chunk of sleep at 7 months. the daytime sleeps sound ok but he really should be moving towards a couple of deep sleeps, 7.30-11.00, 11.30-3, and then a 3.30-6. What he's doing now isn't good for anyone - he's overtired, you are knackered and your partner is probably not getting a proper sleep on the sofa

Freezing I don't think it's hunger either really. His routine is so set he has regular bfs and I offer him solids throughout the day. He also has some bottles of formula now and again which make no difference.

He is just a snuggly baby, he likes lots of interaction and cuddles and always has done. Plus he seems to be thriving in all other areas so I don't know if it's really bothering him? He certainly doesn't seem chronically tired to me, quite the opposite in fact ha! Did it seem to be affecting your DS in any way?

Woah I don't think the OP is selfish for not wanting to hear her baby cry??? And neither am I. the posts here haven't been judgemental at all I don't think it was called for.

Nope it hasn't done my lb any harm, he's thriving, well ahead in terms of development and super happy! If he gets overtired he makes up for it and sleeps for longer. Really, you aren't doing your baby any harm by not sleep training. and you aren't selfish!

My bf baby sounds very similar, snuggly, loves to be cuddled and close by his mom.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19874763

That's a very interesting article nottheop. It's actually showing that BF babies have generally higher cortisol levels than FF babies, not that the act of breastfeeding causes increased levels. Nonetheless, still important in proving your point. What causes the increased stress levels is interesting to hypothesise on.

My theory for this is that BF babies don't sleep as well as FF babies in terms of both quality of sleep, quantity and frequency. This persistent exhaustion causes increased cortisol and stress levels in the baby.

(Caveat: there will be exceptions and this is just my hypothesis)

Which does give a perfect circle of an argument for sleep training BF babies as a means to help them be less stressed.

Hmmm, food for thought, since I am fundamentally against any form of sleep training which causes distress before 12 months old.

That's an interesting theory, FATE. Interestingly, the ISIS sleep project reports that breastfed babies have the same amount of sleep as formula fed babies (https://www.isisonline.org.uk/hcp/howbabiesssleep/normalsleeppdevelopment/sleepandd_feeding/).

They also have an interesting article about sleep training too:

https://www.isisonline.org.uk/hcp/howbabiesssleep/sleeptraining/

That study included just 166 babies and while it found cortisol levels were higher in bf babies it in no way proves that the act of bf causes/releases cortisol

Bf babies DO wake more regularly especially in the early days as bm is digested easily; this is thought to be a protective factor against SIDS.

Here's another study you may find interesting www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111017092037.htm

I was also going to ask whether you have heard of the wonder weeks app? Babies have developmental leaps, milestones that they have to go through when they are mastering new skills and this can cause disrupted sleep. As can teething, needing comfort from mum, etc. I'm sorry but I disagree completely with bf babies being 'persistently exhausted' my ten month old has the energy of the Tasmanian devil and still wakes a couple of nights for feeds

This sounds like ds. I was willing to step train - but it backfired. He Would get way too upset and even vomit.

However, what did help with him at that age to get bigger chunks of sleep was to put him to bed earlier. He would finish his second nap and then no more until bed at 6:30. He would then often go through until 1 or 2 am. Also, if you dream feed, try stopping. It just messed with his sleeping. He was a bad sleeper so partially waking him for a feed was stupid. I really regret doing it.

Morning. Yeah I have the wonder weeks and I love it, unfortunately his sleep does worsen during leaps but the way I described in my op seems to be his baseline.

Strangely, he went to bed slightly later last night but had had the same amount of sleep during the day as normal (he had long nap late on so we pushed bedtime routine back as well) and last night he slept til 11 in his cot then started grizzling/crying (not full on crying) so fed him and brought him back to bed and he slept til 3.45! Much longer stretch. What do you all make of this? Was he more tired? Is his normal bedtime too early?

I certainly don't think he is overtired on a regular basis. I respond to all his sleep cues before we ever get to him being screechy or unsettled and I do follow a pretty tight routine for his sleep (as in, awake for X hours after nap etc). The days when he has been overtired his sleep has been significantly worse than it is day to day. Plus he is the happiest, most energetic and playful baby!

Bling that's interesting about the bedtime! I X posted with you before. How old is your DS?

Hi op. I haven't read all the posts but just wanted to say I have 8month old DD and she is a multiple night waker so wanted to respond! I don't feel comfortable doing sleep training at this age, but I'm not writing it off in the future. In the meantime, I have tried the following, which I think may have helped overall: restricting daytime sleep to no more than 2.45 hours (although she usually has less than this though her choice). No sleep after 3pm (but preferably 2.30pm) and I put her in her cot at 7pm, keeping her soft toy down my top for a few hours before bed then putting it in her cot with her so she can smell me. I have also started giving her some food by spoon to increase her solids intake. I was previously purely babyled weaning. She slept from 7 to 7 the other night after a bowl of pasta for dinner, could be coincidence, but I am hoping I have cracked it last!! I know what works for one might not work for another, but some ideas for you to try if you don't want to sleep train yet

I think his normal bedtime was almost certainly too early. He's 7mo, hasn't heard of the orthodoxy that is the 7pm bedtime in the UK. My older two (only 2 months in with no. 3, we shall see...) were never in bed before 9ish at that age.

I'm not, to put it mildly, a fan of sleep training babies. Closeness is a need at this age, and my older two fed at night well into their second years. If you're managing with the broken nights I would just roll with it, really. Could you buy a bigger bed and maybe take one side off the cot and put it against the bed, so you can all sleep in the one bed again?

Oh and responding to your post of this morning, I would say his normal bedtime would only be too early if you were doing a late afternoon nap. I have found dropping the afternoon nap and just doing a morning and lunchtime one has helped. Obviously up to you what you prefer/works with your life. I love having the evening to myself to drink wine

I dream fed at about 10-11pm, right before I went to bed. This was a godsend!

For my family, cosleeping did not work at all. I am a very light sleeper and would leap up at the slightest whimper to feed my baby. My daughter was also a really light sleeper and every time one of us moved, coughed or even cleared our throats, she'd be wide awake!

Also, as another poster said, whimpering is not the same as crying. It took me months to realise that my daughter liked making a whinging noise for 20 mins before she fell asleep. She also liked to be in a completely darkened room, alone. I spent the first six months rocking her to sleep with the night light on!

Freezing the study you posted to only included 143 babies...

Dont think i can be any help, ad my 6 month old sleeps terribly - ds is bf, ive tried formula - doesnt make a difference. Ive tried co sleeping, doesnt make a difference. My ds will not take decent naps in day, ive tried everything - he wont take a dummy ir a finger, will not be rocked or fed to sleep either. Im just hoping he will get better with age!

what do you suppose happened in Victorian times before formula was available?? Babies were either bf or wet nursed. did they all have high cortisol levels and persistent exhaustion??

I'm going to back out of this thread now but here's a link to something I read ages and ages ago when my MIL suggested leaving my beautiful baby to cry and I was reminded of t when I read the 'selfish not to teach your baby to sleep by cio' on a pp.

www.bellybelly.com.au/baby-sleep/cry-it-out/

You're missing my point which is that the argument of increased Cortisol levels is not a valid reason to not sleep train as the causes and effects of Cortisol are unknown.

I used the example shown in the study of bfing being linked to higher levels of it to demonstrate this point. Breastfeeding is an effective way of infant feeding, as is formula.

The only reason a person should sleep Train a baby or toddler is if they want to and it's the right decision for their family. Scare mongering new mothers with threats of child abuse and causing harm are, in my opinion unfounded. I haven't been convinced by anything that 3 nights of controlled crying cause harm.

Spillyobeans I really feel for you that sounds rough. I'll let you know if anything works for us!

Freezing thanks for that last article, I actually have read it before and it really stayed with me! Please keep me posted if anything suddenly works for your DS?

Nottheop thank you too for the article you posted. And thanks for highlighting how much scaremongering there is from both sides.

Obviously baby sleep is quite an emotive topic! Personally, if most parents love their children the way I love mine (and I believe most parents do!), then I don't think many decisions are selfish. I'm merely following the guidelines that feel most instinctively "right" for my family, as I'm sure everyone else has/does. Thanks for all the responses

Katastrophe and mazzle I'm going to see what happens with afternoon nap/bedtime today just to see if we have a repeat of last night! If it goes tits up I'll put last night down to a fluke.

Haybales thanks for your post! I think you may be right about bedtime, I'm going to see what happens this evening. How long did it take your first two before they self soothed independently? Have you noticed anything particularly works/ doesn't work to make life easier?

Hi op.

All my 4 were bf and I did cc at 9 months each time except for ds2 because he slept through and I have no idea why,

I did cc as I was knackered and needed my sleep more than my kids needed night time cuddles. I had to function as a mum, wife and worker. I was also so tired once I
Crashed my car.

It was the best thing I ever did and worked like magic.

They are all well Adjusted teens and Adults I can assure you.

Still each to own.