to not do sleep training?

[ppandj]

This has probably been done to death on here but I would like some advice- feel free to read or not even read and run if you want to.

DS is 7mo now and he sleeps like this;
bath, feed and cuddle before bed at around 7/7.30 put down in cot. He cries pretty much every 40 mins after that but settles when we go up to stroke his head or give him a quick cuddle which takes about 5 minutes.
Feed around 9.30/10pm then depending on how settled he is he usually comes into the bed with me (dp sleeping on sofa!)
He then sleeps in bed with me and wakes at 1am, 3am and then at 5am is awake for the day.
He has 3 naps per day, 2x 40mins and 1x 90mins if I'm holding him.

He is BF, has a dummy, sometimes rocked to sleep but only half the time- other half he falls asleep being held but not rocked. Never falls asleep alone in the cot.

Weaning is not going well but rather than be frustrated I'm trying to be lead by him and keep mealtimes/food as fun as possible.

I am working part time now doing 3 evenings per week so in that time dp does childcare often with help from pil. Then I get home at 11pm on those nights and feed DS and if necessary bring him into bed.

DP (understandably) doesn't want to sleep on the sofa, I don't want him to either. We would really like it if DS would sleep in his cot and for longer stretches of time but both of us do not want to sleep train if we can avoid it. I'm not asking for 10 hours straight- just a bit longer than 3 being the maximum.

Will he just grow out of this by himself? Is it the bfing? Have we indeed "made a rod for our own backs"? Am I being a bit pfb in wanting to avoid sleep training?

Sorry it was so long and thanks in advance if you can help.

Your DS sounds just like mine 4 yrs ago and same routine too, except I moved rooms in the end rather than husband and co slept for another 18 months or so. I didn't want to sleep train either but I was knackered and did look for solutions - have you seen the No Cry Sleep Solution book? It gives tips to gently encourage longer sleeps and self settling, but also perspective on how so much of this behaviour is utterly normal.
For daytime naps, he started not needing to be held around 9 months which I found quite a relief as it at least showed I wasn't smothering the poor child's ability to sleep independently by keeping hold of him!
I did struggle with the sleep deprivation and tried so many things. I even cracked the elusive 'put him to bed drowsy but awake, let him settle himself to sleep' thing with no tears; all the books and websites say this is the magic answer, but it still made NO difference. He still woke in the night multiple times. I just took the path of least resistance I'm afraid and put him in my bed and fed him back to sleep. I don't want to demoralise you because I'm sure he's an extreme case but he's only just started sleeping through in his own bed having started school!!
However the 'rod for your own back' thing I can categorically refute since the birth of my DD who has slept through the night - like properly 9-6- since she was about 6 weeks old despite me doing nothing different whatsiever. She's also ebf, naps on me, fed on demand, treated exactly the same as DS. Just different personality, different baby. I now realise it was nothing I did, or didn't do, just luck of the draw.

I don't think you are being pfb at all, and actually it's very sensible to just go with whatever tactic maximises sleep for all of you. Is there a way of getting a bigger or extra bed al your dp can come off the sofa?

Sounds pretty normal to me. My ds didn't sleep more than a couple of hours through the night until he was over a year. Can you get a bigger bed? Also a bedside cot may help. Ds started off in ours (after being fed to sleep) and then came in with us/me when he woke - anytime from midnight usually. When he was about 3 we bought a super king bed. Fantastic buy.

I also love me the 'No cry sleep solution' books' - they made me feel what we had was normal. Should add, by 3 (when we got the big bed) our son would go to sleep in his bed and then come and climb in with us somewhere between 1 and 6. He would go straight back to sleep and so did I so it worked for us.

We threw a double mattress in ds' room and I went in there with ds - worked for us :)

Thank you for your replies and suggestions.
We have tried shush-pat and pick up, put down so far (albeit not really in a structured sense) but DS just becomes upset very quickly and I can't just do nothing. I can see that usually the cause of him crying is because he wants to get to sleep but his crying just escalates and, knowing him, I don't think he would "tire out" for s long time.
Ultimately any form of leaving him to cry feels unnatural to me and I just don't want to do it. Also, DS is the easiest baby to look after apart from the sleep and the weaning which had been a bit frustrating before I relaxed about it. He's such a happy baby when he's not in the cot.

He definitely wakes with hunger during the night so I feed him as he needs it. One of the only good things about the situation is that his pattern is very predictable and we are in a definite daytime/evening routine. Maybe cutting a nap will work, we'll definitely try this. I'll get the white noise and Ewan back too.

DP doesn't feel comfortable co- sleeping as he worries he will somehow squash DS and also feels that he gets more sleep not hearing all the baby snoring/waking/crying.

My choice would be to buy a bigger bed, a set of earplugs for DP and carry on a bit longer until I know DS is less likely to be hungry. But DP thinks we will have to sleep train eventually and he is unable to help me in the night because of work so feels that we'd all be better off after. We are at an impasse but I'm trying to work out the middle ground. Thanks again for your help!

There's a middle ground in all this. Right now, your baby is running your life, giving you little peace, and disrupting your marriage. Nothing reasonable you do will hurt your child in the long run. Finding ways for him to sleep for longer periods is a win-win.

Thanks erica think you're right.

It depends what you mean by sleep training? There seems so many definitions now. Anything to do with leaving the baby to cry is never a good idea in my opinion. However if you mean sitting next to his cot and patting his back or something I don't see why not if your current approach isn't working.

Jw35 that's what we're doing sort of, but he isn't soothed really by the shhing etc so it feels like he is being left to cry but rather than alone we are sat with him. So I guess by sleep training I mean more of the CIO/CC types where you accept an amount of crying. Though I would far prefer to continue with more gentler approaches, it just feels like they aren't working. Maybe more structure is needed?

I think it sounds grim tbh and yes, you are making a rod for your own back, but I think you know that. I think there are gentler ways of getting his sleep under control so everyone including your husband sleeps better. I do feel sympathy for you, it's so darn tiring being up in the night, but I'd suggest getting him more used to his cot (all sleep in there and nowhere else when at home). Your husband needs to be back in the adults bed, baby free or you'll possibly end up still breastfeeding a three year old twice a night who won't sleep anywhere else or even go to sleep without being nursed (so basically rules the bedroom).

He is far too young for sleep training that goes against what he needs and it seems that he needs company and bf through out the night. I would go with the flow and work out a more practical solution for co-sleeping. Your DH has to either get used to co-sleeping or accept a mattress in another room, just sleep train him!

I didn't do sleep training but did move him into his own room at 7 months in desperation because he was waking up every half an hour in our room, and since then he wakes up once a night (for an hour, grr, but its much better)

Isn't it a bit ironic that your DH is so resistant to changing his sleep habits, e.g. He doesn't want to try co-sleeping as he thinks he will be kept awake by the baby, and some posters think it is important to protect your DH's access to the double bed, but at the same time expect the 7mo to change his habits to fit the adults?

I hit the wall wannabe describes at 7.5 months and sleep trained was easy least. She cried for about 15 mins 3 times a night for two nights and that was it. Best parenting decision so far. They need help learning to settle. They really do.

Your baby, your choice. So, no. Not unreasonable not to sleep train if you don't want to. I will put my tuppence worth in though...

I feel sorry for your husband having to sleep on the sofa. Although it sounds really patronising, it's worth knowing the difference between crying and grizzling (I have a seven month old who wakes during the night around the times yours does, she grizzles a bit then put herself back to sleep). Sleep training with crying doesn't involve letting them scream their heart out (my seven month old sometimes cries for a couple of minutes before nodding off - she is my second though, and no way would I have let my first cry.)

That's a really helpful post from dorothea a sit shows how sometimes it isn't anything like as bad as parents think it will be. Granted they don't all react like that but it must be worth giving a go to see whether you/the child can tolerate it for a bit and wether it helps.

My third screamed and screamed and leaving him to cry didn't work. Hours later hed still be crying- and I'm extremely robust to children screaming. With him, it was hunger and discomfort. He had grown out of the discomfort by around 5 months and we'd learnt to give him 2 bottles of formula along with b/fing for 4 hours. His capacity for food was extraordinary.

i dont regret leaving him to cry at all even though it didn't work. He has never had self soothing issues since we dealt with those problems (unless he's ill when at least we know there's a problem)

Ill get flayed for this but I do think Every child should be sleeping through by 6/7 months most of the time. Some parents don't mind if they're not which is fine. But if you do, there's ways of making it happen. Easier of course if you start early.

I used the no cry sleep solution book. It's very very slow going but doesn't involve them crying and i liked it because I could see where we were going with it even though it was gradual. It starts with slowly getting them to come off the nipple before falling asleep and works to to them sleeping themselves. It caters for co-sleeping too though if you want to and allows for continuing night feeds (which you need to if he's not taking much food). I wonder if it might be a compromise between you and dh where he feels you're "doing something" but you feel comfortable with what you're doing too.

Also, now I think about it a bit more, my DS had a super clingy stage that started at around 6 months and he wouldn't sleep unless he was being held and screamed bloody murder if I left the room while with him during the day. He was very clingy for several months but has improved now. Most of my friends' babies went through this stage too, between around 7-10 months, seems like it is part of the separation anxiety phase, so maybe this is also affecting your DS?

I think the thing to remember here is that every baby is different. Whilst a lot of the advice and experience here is very helpful, telling Op this is a bit shit, or that babies don't need feeding through the night, and should sleep through at this age is just nonsense. Some do for sure. Not all do and as far as I'm aware it's a big enough variation for neither way to be normal.

I think it comes down to circumstances. If you need, or indeed want to change the sleeping habits then there are ways and good advice upthread.
If it helps with the cosleeping, I have DD on the outside of me normally with my arm round her. But I'm a very light sleeper and I'm confident I would feel her move. And also we don't do it very often as luckily DD is generally a good sleeper. As with most things in parenting, there will always be ups and downs.

Yes, it was much easier than I expected. I had done quite a bit of prep though; only resettling her in the cot for a month by that point and a strict regime. I should clarify that I went in after 3m, 5m, 7m. I didn't just leave her. She was ready to self settle. It was just a habit calling for mum at that point. Definitely not hungry.

I understand you don't like him crying (even with you there), nobody likes their baby crying.

But look at it this way. If he currently wakes say 7 times a night, he probably cries for let's say 2 mins each time while you get up and go to comfort him. That is still 14 mins of crying every night. If you can teach him to self settle, the night wakings should go down to 2 or 1 (and in a few months time once eating more, hopefully none). Which would mean far less crying overall in the long term. I think it's worth a bit of extra crying short term, for less crying and more sleep for everyone long term.

I also think you and DP will be more fun parents to him if you've had more sleep, so that's another benefit to DS to offset the (small amount of) crying involved in sleep training.

Could he be hungry? Neice used to wake up a lot at night around 6-7 months, but stopped when I started feeding her more solids vs milk. You could also put him in a cot in your room so he gets used to it, and then work up to move him permanently into his own room. Co-sleeping can make things a lot worse- especially when baby begins to associate it with confort.

Please don't do sleep training! My little boy is almost 10 months, bf, I have never forced him to eat when weaning, and honestly he's the happiest little boy in the world. When left to cry babies cortisol levels go very very high. Imo babies were not meant to be 'sleep trained' they do not manipulate their parents they simply want to be near to mum and dad and know they're safe. In years to come I know I will still be happy with the decision I've made, I hardly think when my lb is at university he will need to be held to sleep

This time last year you were still pregnant, look how much has changed since then! This time next year things will be different again. They're so little for such a short amount of time, and you are obviously surviving on your current routine.. Stick with it, he will sleep eventually and so will you

I wouldn't. And didn't. They get there in the end. Your situation sounds very normal.

YANBU.

You can make things more comfortable for all of you though. One compromise is to put the cot beside your bed with one side down or completely off. This allows you to slide baby in and out of your bed when you need to feed, but still gives you and DH your own bed space when baby falls asleep again.

There are gentle sleep training methods (as other posters have pointed out) without having to resort to cry it out.

I'm of the view that you can't expect to have a child and not make some sacrifices (e.g. sleep!). I also don't think it's unfair on your DH - it really won't be forever!