to not do sleep training?

[ppandj]

This has probably been done to death on here but I would like some advice- feel free to read or not even read and run if you want to.

DS is 7mo now and he sleeps like this;
bath, feed and cuddle before bed at around 7/7.30 put down in cot. He cries pretty much every 40 mins after that but settles when we go up to stroke his head or give him a quick cuddle which takes about 5 minutes.
Feed around 9.30/10pm then depending on how settled he is he usually comes into the bed with me (dp sleeping on sofa!)
He then sleeps in bed with me and wakes at 1am, 3am and then at 5am is awake for the day.
He has 3 naps per day, 2x 40mins and 1x 90mins if I'm holding him.

He is BF, has a dummy, sometimes rocked to sleep but only half the time- other half he falls asleep being held but not rocked. Never falls asleep alone in the cot.

Weaning is not going well but rather than be frustrated I'm trying to be lead by him and keep mealtimes/food as fun as possible.

I am working part time now doing 3 evenings per week so in that time dp does childcare often with help from pil. Then I get home at 11pm on those nights and feed DS and if necessary bring him into bed.

DP (understandably) doesn't want to sleep on the sofa, I don't want him to either. We would really like it if DS would sleep in his cot and for longer stretches of time but both of us do not want to sleep train if we can avoid it. I'm not asking for 10 hours straight- just a bit longer than 3 being the maximum.

Will he just grow out of this by himself? Is it the bfing? Have we indeed "made a rod for our own backs"? Am I being a bit pfb in wanting to avoid sleep training?

Sorry it was so long and thanks in advance if you can help.

Yanbu if you are happy with your arrangement and so is DH. If not I would be looking at one of the many gentle methods of training. Most 7mo don't need feeding lots of times in the night and they are able to self-soothe with help. I would find that much disturbed sleep from a 7mo baby very hard to handle but everyone's different

You could try taking the side off the cot and attaching it to the side of your bed so you can feed and cuddle to sleep but still have baby in the cot (and dh in bed). I presume you are doing the night-time-is-dark and boring-day-time-is-light-and-exciting thing?

FWIW, I refused to sleep train and as a result left a distraught bf baby to be forcibly rocked to sleep by distraught childminder/ siblings/dad when I went to work. In hindsight, gentle sleep training (bedtime routine, bf, shh, cuddle, stroke head, reassure, tuck back in, leave, repeat, dark room, etc) before sprog can pull up to stand in the cot and scream for hours is probably the way to go, unless you can guarantee to have boobs available everytime your child wants to sleep for the next 2 years.

I didn't do sleep training and was very anti CIO. I now have a 6 year old who still doesn't sleep through the night and we are all utterly exhausted!

Goldenlillies what happens when your DC wakes up? Have there ever been any period where he/she did sleep through? I'm just interested to know what it could be like.

Thanks for all your replies. DP and I are both theoretically against CIO or CC which, as I said upthread, I imagine any sleep training will turn into eventually as DS doesn't seem to tire himself out with crying- he just gets more and more worked up. I won't go on about the reasons why I don't want to do more intense sleep training methods, as they are personal but as a previous poster said- I'm just not that desperate yet. I'm more desperate to avoid CIO to be honest.

I've got the no-cry sleep solution but haven't implemented it rigidly yet so will give it a go.

I'm showing DP this thread also so that we can both see what your thoughts are. What I am now really interested in is, for those of you who didn't sleep train, what did you do to cope and also when did it improve? Like I said in my op, I'm not expecting 10 hours- I'd just like a chunk of maybe 5 hours and for DS to spend a bit more time in his own bed.

OP my little boy now almost 10 months ocasionally goes 5 hours in his own cot, other times he's awake after ten minutes. This is only recently though say in the last month or so.. At his age we were on your position too!

Thanks for that Freezing, what did you do to make life easier?

We didn't use sleep training. DS was in the bed with us and we all slept fine. If you can make a bedside cot then it does give you a bit more room but tbh DS usually ended up in our bed anyway. I was pretty laid back about the whole sleep and routine thing and but he sleeps fine in his own room now, goes to sleep after his story with no problems etc so I think the whole 'rod for your back' thing is a load of nonsense. They all get there eventually, some just take longer than others.

If you are coping ok with things how they are then there is no reason to not to carry on. However, you need to be mindful of that you might not always feel like this. Is your DP happy to sleep on the sofa long term? Will you still be happy to be up a few times in the night in your 6/12/18 months time. Routines and habits are easier to establish in younger babies and they are unlikely to sleep through with out some intervention on your part.

I'm a wreck without sleep so my DDs had to learn quick

Ignore people who categorically say, "Don't do sleep training." Only you can decide what is best for everyone concerned. I definitely believe that many babies need help learning to settle themselves. It isn't at all cruel to assist them. In fact, it can be the kindest thing to do for an over-tired baby. I'm not in any way advocating letting a baby cry it out. But there are many gentle methods, some of which have already been mentioned.

OTOH, if you are feeling fine with things as they are, why rock the boat?

I co-slept and fed both of my DCs lying down so they very rarely cried (only whe sick really). DD was a very poor sleeper and things didn't get any better till she was 2yo when I tried the Dr J Gordon method to stp her bfing through the night. DS has always been a much better sleeper but he is unsettled this winter as he's caught a million viruses (15mo).

It's totally not inevitable that you have to sleep train. I know lots of people who have never sleep trained.

However, if you don't want to sleep train you might have to adjust your expectations of when they will sleep through and/or what sleeping through means. DS slept through (meaning from when I put him to bed until the morning without waking except for illness/bad dreams) by about 2.5 and this isn't an unusual age. He then needed somebody with him to help him fall asleep until around 4. I was fine with this - others might not be. Neither position is more "right".

There were other manageable stages which came earlier. I found by about 15m I could put him to bed in the evening and he would wake once within that evening and be resettled quickly, then once at about 10.30/11ish when I was going to bed anyway, and then sleep through until something like 5am at which point he'd come into bed, feed, next feed at 7/8am and if I was lucky I could do the "baby snooze button" of breastfeeding and we could both snooze for another 30-60 minutes.

Somewhere between 18m and 2 years this had dropped to one wake up at around 10.30/11ish and the 7/8am with baby snooze button, which was perfect for me.

At 7m my DS was pretty similar to yours, in fact I didn't used to put him upstairs in the evening until he started crawling, just kept him on my lap because he always wanted to cluster feed anyway. I co slept through choice, and would do again, but understand your reluctance. I used a sidecar cot (converted ikea one) - would that help allay your DH's fears? I suppose that he'd still hear the noises, but I think that's something worth getting used to or wearing earplugs, but of course that's me and not you/him.

One thing was I never used a standalone cot. When I started putting DS in his own room then I put a mattress on the floor (so he couldn't hurt himself if he rolled out) and settled him on that, then into a normal single bed with bed guard. That way I could always get in with him, which just seemed like the most practical solution to me.

Ultimately I think it helps to work out what the problem is, rather than what you think would solve it. So if the problem is that the frequent night wakings are disturbing, you can look at making them less frequent or making them less disturbing. If that makes sense. NCSS is really good :)

If you are going to sleep train, now is the perfect time. Far easier now than in a couple of years time when you are totally worn down and your baby is a toddler who can get out of the cot and come downstairs.
I'm old-school, and used CIO at this age, going in after 5,10,15 mins.
Took one night (ONE NIGHT! and less than 1 hour) to work, after that he had learned how to self-settle.
Aware this is not a popular thing to do now.
DS does not seem to have any long term issues from this.
Not great that your DH is on the sofa!

what did you do to cope I put a lot of effort into strict wind down and bedtime routine: bath, grobag, stories in dim light, feed to sleep (Or later place in cot drowsy). This was allegedly key to getting them to self settle in night. I kept a lot of sleep logs which didn't have any actual purpose but made me feel more proactive . I did a lot of googling and comforted myself it seemed normal. I put a single bed in the nursery and slept in with him. I got Netflix on my phone and watched braking bad during the night feeds. I vowed every night I would really try to settle him back in the cot when he woke. This never happened because the lure of laying him down with me and going back to lovely sleep was too strong.

when did it improve? I think by a year he was mainly staying asleep til midnight / 1am and that's lovely as you can get your evenings back. atopped breastfeeding at 2yo and it was fine by that point. Although he didn't sleep through, he would just trot into my room when he woke up, climb in with me and then fall straight back asleep holding my hand . It was lovely actually and didn't disturb me anymore than turning over.

I didn't sleep train any of mine, 3 of them slept through once they were in their own rooms, DD2 slept through the night before I started weaning at 6 months.

OP Have you considered that he isn't being fed enough for his rate of growth?

I would try changing his diet so that he eats more before bed so goes to bed with a full little belly.

A friend of mine was struggling and found her son simply needed more to eat so she started adding rice cereal to his milk (bottle fed obviously but needn't be formula).

To add: In the first 2 years I also spent tons on trying to solve the issue! Books, light show projectors, soothing glowing soft toys, apps with white noise. With shh pat or gradual withdrawal or any of those, he just got himself really worked up to the point he basically was crying himself to sleep, just in my arms, which seemed pointless and counterproductive to me.
One book that did stay with me was Why Love Matters which is a really good explaination of the brain chemistry involved with baby sleep and attachment. It really convinced me I was doing the right thing in following my instincts. I'm sure that's all any of us can do. I really feel for you because the disrupted sleep is so difficult. But as I said, my daughter who I have treated identically is an amazing sleeper so I am convinced a lot is down to individual personalities.

DD2 is the same as your DS, she's 6.5m.

DD1's sleep improved at 10m when she started nursery and was eating a decent amount of solids. So on the one hand, hopefully not long to go if history repeats.

However, I have vivid memories of trying to keep a mobile toddler lying down, with the cot on the lowest setting, and ending up crippled! So I'm leaning towards doing something with dd2 while she isn't pulling herself up and the cot is on the highest setting.

Can you pull the cot up alongside your bed? Then ds still gets to cosleep but your dh can get off the sofa.

There's no point sleep training if your heart isn't in it. I've never had any success and it's probably partly because I never think it's going to work.

Check out the sleep board - there are lots of threads with advice.

To me he sounds like he's possibly disturbed by being near to you and you're very responsive to it, which is natural and fine. There are small steps which can create healthy habits;

Own room
Dummy - unless he wakes for the dummy
Giving him the opportunity to self settle - Nap and bedtime routine at consistent times
Being consistent
Waiting for 5 minutes before going in - responding quickly can actually wake them up more if they were just being noisy going through the sleep cycle

At his age it's good to try a 2-3-4 or by the clock routine. Persevere for a week.

Cortisol levels also rise when bfing - it's a crap reason to not do cc. Using scientific words that don't mean anything is just silly, that study is crap.

don't put baby rice in his bottle.

OP I haven't done anything to make any changes, it's something he's simply started doing himself lately, without anything changing from me. Everyone from your health visitor to mother In law may say a baby must or should sleep through the night by this age, but all babies are different.

I really disagree that it's hunger keeping him awake! I'm sure he is fed more than enough during the day, I am 27 and I still wake regularly in the night not for food though!!

I don't really have any words of advice but just to repeat I have been in this situation and still am ocasionally!!

Rice in bottles is a huge choking hazard please don't do this even if 'it never did my baby any harm'

Also I've never heard that cortisol (stress hormone) is released as you breastfeed?? As far as I was concerned cortisol is released when you hear a baby cry, and oxytocin is the hormone released when you breastfeed!!

cortisol levels rise when breastfeeding? Please can you link to the evidence for this. All my training as a breastfeeding supporter leads me to believe that the opposite is true. cortisol levels rise when babies are left on their own to cry.

Please don't put any form of thickener in a bottle - it is a serious choking hazard (ask your health visitor if you don't believe me!)

op, you've got loads to think about on this thread. Please only choose whatever works best for you and your baby.

Intothebeach thanks for being the voice of reason

I don't know about this in depth, but cortisol is released at many points for humans during things that are good and bad for us (exercising and crying for example) so to be honest that isn't the main reason I'm not keen on CIO etc. Basically I wouldn't ignore anybody else communicating with me so I don't want to ignore him. Just my personal choice. It doesn't mean I vow to never do it, it just means it is my very last resort. I may be totally wrong and it's just my instincts, I mean no offence whatsoever to anyone who has chosen to use those methods and hope none of my posts appear to offend.* *
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Thanks again for all the responses!

CIO was the best thing I ever did for my girls I think. Worked for both of them.
Two nights of crying for max 10 minutes each, from a few months old iirc, and then they've slept 12 hours through every single night since (barring illness) and they're now 5 &7.
I don't think it's right to not let your child get the sleep they need because you don't want to hear them cry. It's a bit selfish tbh.