AIBU over not forcing a child to say please or thank you

[ScrumpyBetty]

AIBU to think that teaching my child manners is not teaching him to blindly follow orders? I am interested in people's opinions after reading a Facebook post of an acquaintance, which basically said that she will never force her child to say please, thank you, give hugs etc if he doesn't want to because she wants her child to respect her and not to have to say please or thank you if he doesn't mean it. She equated teaching a child manners to blindly getting them to follow orders. Now I don't agree with this, but loads of people came on and supported her post, commenting that she was such an inspirational parent and that they fully agreed with her.
I am interested in what other people think.

I modelled 'please' and 'thank you' with DD from tiny and she always says it now at 3yo, occasionally with a gentle reminder.
I don't force her to kiss/hug, etc. Nor do I force her to say sorry - IMO it's pointless forcing a child to apologise because it belies the entire point of being sorry! I usually explain why it would be nice to say sorry and/or discipline appropriately (taking back snatched item, etc).
I have a very overbearing friend that forces her kids (and sometimes others) to say please, sorry etc. The way she says it is almost like she's telling them off. IME it's much less effective than treating them with a bit of respect.

My 3 yo dd must always say please and thank you if she wants soemthibg. She is corrected if she says "I want" and knows she should say "I would like" or "please may I have". A cheerful pleasant tone can be OK rather than an actual please but that depends.

She is praised if she asks stuff like "have you had a nice day?" Things that she has heard us ask. We don't 'teach' it but she is praised when she does it because it is nice for her to think to ask.

These things are important to me because I think she will endear herself better to people by taking the time to show manners.

Forcing touching is completely different. If my dd doesn't want to give a hug or a kiss then she doesn't need to. But she does need to say thank you for a present. It is not hard to seperate these things.

Your acquaintance sounds like she is conflating two issues and getting her knickers in a twist. I always say thank you when people open doors for me - it doesn't mean I have to hug them as well.

Like a pp said - to get on well in British society, saying 'Please' and 'Thank You' are fairly necessary. Even if they're just said automatically or by rote, it's still an important thing to be instilled IMO.

Teaching dc social constructs is needed. They need to know that when someone holds their hand out to shake it, they shake it. That if someone is holding a heavy bag and struggling, you hold the door open for them. That it's polite to say 'Thank You' when someone's done something nice and polite to say 'Sorry' when you accidently bump into someone etc.

she wants her child to respect her and not to have to say please or thank you if he doesn't mean it
What bollocks. Not instilling manners in her dc isn't going to make them respect her.

But if you bring your children up in England then it is the norm and please and thank you is very necessary.

It's a really bad idea imo. I work in a school and there are a couple of children who have been raised that way, but good manners are absolutely expected in school. These children clearly resent being reminded to say please and thank you, and it then comes out through gritted teeth with an eye roll thrown in. Sadly it does colour others opinion of them, even other children who have been taught manners are important think them rude. These are infant pupils btw.

Really interesting to hear everyone's views, thanks.

I do agree actually that with Hugs and kissing it should not be forced, but basic manners is very different and that is why I was quite shocked when I read her post and also shocked that so many people commented, agreeing with her!

Having good manners and social skills can really open doors for you, and make life just that bit nicer and happier.
I am quite average , I guess, in terms of academics etc. I got good enough grades in my exams and did ok at uni but I was never one of the strongest, or most driven. However, I have always done well for myself, more than what would have been expected on paper, because of the way that I come across. A huge part of that is social graces.
Last year all three of my school age children, were given their end of year class awards, and the reasons that their teachers gave were for being "lovely" or "polite". Good social skills, makes people warm to you. Why would anyone not want that for their children?

shakirasma she is homeschooling her child, so I suppose she doesn't care so much about integrating them in to the school system!

The problem is though that home schooling does end and eventually comes employment. There will certainly be others around who share her views but personally I would rather not be around them.

I can understand not making a child give hugs if they don't want to. However, saying 'please' and 'thankyou' are simply good manners.

I believe that if you model good manners, with encouragement children pick it up when they are ready. Ds is non verbal so obviously cannot do this and is only just starting to look at people. Now he is older it is obvious he is disabled but when he was pre school aged, I am sure some people thought he was being rude.

My DD has a friend who almost never says please or thank you. The first time I had her over to visit, it was quite amazing to me, I wasn't sure how to handle it.

I'd not met a child quite like it before. I've met plenty of children who are sometimes cheeky, who are rude, who test boundaries. But this one- the words were completely absent from her conversation. She's bright and quite chatty, and has no qualms about asking, often repeatedly, for things such as snacks, drinks, an ice cream, etc. But never a please or thank you. Quite weird.

Random personal anecdote-
I once knew a family (in the 70's, quite hippyish, fairly eccentric), who didn't believe in saying please and thank you often, and resisted their kids saying it. But they also didn't believe in wearing watches as they didn't want to be dictated to by time pressure and felt it would stop them seizing the moment and being spontaneous etc. Their older child grew up to be rather conservative and straight-laced, kindly and with lovely manners. The younger was a manipulative, charismatic and arrogant bully, who made several peoples lives miserable.

My 3yo is well mannered. I've never forced him to say please or thank you, but he knows if he is rude he doesn't get what he wants. If he would like something, he has to ask me nicely.
I've never forced him to say sorry either. But I explain to him when I think he should say sorry and that if he's done something naughty/hurt someone etc, and doesn't apologise then they might not want to carry on playing with him.
9 times out of 10 he will say please/thank you/sorry automatically, because he knows it's polite rather than because I have told him to.

I also don't make him hug or kiss people. I don't hug or kiss people I don't want to so I don't see why he should have to I don't let him ignore people though. Today DS gave my friend a cuddle when saying goodbye for the first time in the year he's known her, she actually welled up because she was so touched that the cuddle came from him, not from me telling him to!

I agree with your friend, sorry. I e always modelled please and thank you. All my children said please and thank you at home to us, as soon as they could talk. Out and about they may be shy so didn't so much, and to people they weren't familiar with at home. Now they are older and more confident they always say please and thank you and mean it.

Well if she doesn't want her children to just follow orders, and not to do something just because someone else thinks it is a good idea toilet training is going to be fairly interesting for her.

Hugs and kisses are not good manners. Good manners is knowing how and when to say please and thank you, greet someone properly, include people in conversation (the dreaded small talk), eat without giving offence and generally behave yourself in society and communal activities showing consideration for the others who are with you. You start this with toddlers by modeling good behaviour with them (saying please and thank you yourself and treating them gently) and instructing them to say please and thank you. It takes a long while for it to become reflexive for some children.

I think good manners are simply an awareness of the other people around you and a desire not to offend them unnecessarily. As an adult, I would say that that particular awareness is something I see in successful people (I mean successful in life generally - with relationships/happiness but also in work).

I don't force DD to hug, but I encourage her to, and being a little people pleaser she'll do it. But I'm also good at not pushing it if she doesn't want to give me a hug. She'll still come up 10x a day with her lips puckered going "mmmmmmmm" so she can say "mwah!" when she plants the kiss. :)

Please and Thank You, is not from lack of trying. If I hold object of desire out of reach until she says please, she melts down. I have withheld a cookie because she wouldn't. A few hours later same result. Next day same result. She can say it, and does say it sometimes. But for whatever reason she won't say it if she's not in the mood for it. She's also only 2, so I'm not sure what's normal and what's not. But other kids are saying it when parents prod them.

I just give stuff to her now reminding her to say "Please" then giving it to her and telling her to say "Thank you". Most times she won't. But I'm not making it a battle until she's older and talking better.

I think all of the people saying it doesn't work to not actively teach are missing the point. You're going by the examples of some kids you know who probably weren't even modelled it by the sounds of the parents. That is not the same thing as modelling, not actively teaching/expecting but letting it develop naturally.

Probably you know lots of people who don't actively teach but their kids do say it naturally because the parents do, you just don't notice because you weren't around them when they were younger, or you assume that they must have actively been on top of them and taught it explicitly.

Obviously if the parents are rude and don't bother, then the kids will also be rude and not bother, but it's a straw man to equate "not forcing" with "Nah can't be arsed, my kid should never have to say it ever".

Manners maketh the man.

Good manners really do matter. Kids need to understand this

She will raise a rude person who doesn't know how to behave around others and is disliked as a result. Brilliant parenting

I teach mine always say please and thank you when people deserve it. But also that they are allowed to be very rude to people that scare them and/or try to get to do something they don't want to.

she will never force her child to say please, thank you, give hugs etc if he doesn't want to because she wants her child to respect her and not to have to say please or thank you if he doesn't mean it. She equated teaching a child manners to blindly getting them to follow orders.

The interesting thing is this type of parent usually ends up taking orders from their kids.

There's alot more to manners than saying please and thank you. My DC are 6 & 4. If my Dc wait politely to ask, use a nice tone, ask nicely, smile, etc. I don't force them to add please, it's implied in their general good manners. If they received the thing they asked for took it nicely, smiled and nodded, I would might remind them to say thank you, but if they grabbed the item out of my hand and snarled thanks as they turned and ran off they would get told off for being rude.
My 4 yr old is very shy, trick or treating was a social nightmare. He would have rather gone home crying and empty handed than have to take a sweet out of a strangers bowl AND talk to them, so a smile and a nod and a thank you from me or DS1 had to do. Last year he did go home empty handed. Thank fully people thought he was cute and shy not rude, he'll be a bit old for that next year.

What a load of bollocks.

Im with the load of bollocks! Of course you instil please and thank you.

Ah is this the sort of thinking that goes hand in hand with the idea of 'authenticity' and 'always speaking my truth' which is actually just a way of creating people who will be rude, arrogant, precious dicks?

Sounds like it (minus the force hugs aspect etc due to all the reasons others have said).