Cinema ban on the Lord's Prayer

[Leafitout]

Surely if anyone finds this advert offensive they can choose not to watch it. I can't see the problem with showing it.

Christians believe in the power of prayer, having an advert saying a prayer is therefore an absolutely fundamentally different invasion of a person's freedom. It is not just advertising the prayer site that is the issue to me but the fact that the prayer is being imposed on the audience.

Offred if you don't believe in the power (associated by Christians) of prayer, what exactly is being imposed?

Does prayer have the power to impose anything upon you? If the words were equally a prayer but not in a language you understood, would you still be offended? If you didn't recognise what sounded, to you, like a song or poetry, would you be equally offended? If I prayed, silently, in your presence, would you be equally offended?

The trouble with 'devout atheist' is that 'devout' directly pertains to religious belief. Describing someone as a devout atheist is really a fundamental misrepresentation of what atheism is - and instead brings it into the sphere of a belief system, which is a paradigm the religious are more familiar or comfortable with.

I think there are some logical flaws in your argument though, that simply because atheists don't believe in any gods, they shouldn't be able to or have an interest in pointing out the flaws or problems with some of what religions are saying, in a world where religions seek to impose their values, beliefs and practices on those who don't share them.

And we're back to secularism again, and why there are many secular people of faith. Because I'd have much less interest in pointing out why religions are wrong (including the one I used to belong to) if religions weren't seeking special treatment or privilege. If religions weren't seeking to affect my life, why would I or other atheists be really bothered?

That said, it would still be interesting from the standpoint of how humans tick - why religions spring up, why people follow them, the drives for the rise and current dominance of monotheism, etc. It's fascinating stuff.

Offred if you don't believe in the power (associated by Christians) of prayer, what exactly is being imposed?

I find any offer or suggestion of being 'prayed for' pretty paternalistic and patronising. Anyone saying they'll pray to me is suggesting they know better than I do what's good for me.

I assume most religious people do in fact think that. But it'd be polite to keep it to yourself, yeah?

Again, I don't find it 'offensive' (such a favourite go-to word). I find it annoying.

But Jassy if you don't ascribe any (metaphorical) substance to the 'religious' in terms belief, where does that leave you in terms of the usage of devout? Surely this just leaves you with belief and lack of it. So then, devout would be simply be able to be ascribed to any belief or belief system.

Ah, so a secularist Christian is an oxymoron then.

I don't believe in the power of prayer.

That doesn't mean I am not able to object to people praying over me, which is what I feel this ad is designed to do. Pray over people without any respect for their right to choose their own belief.

Jassy from a position of believing in the power of prayer, it is impossible to keep it to myself, by the very nature of what prayer is...

Faberge, you don't think you can have faith without it having special status in the public sphere (such as schools and parliament)?

How odd.

Gosh Jessy, how delicate you
sound when you talk of being patronised.

Elizabeth, Christians believe prayer is a powerful tool and benefits everyone who comes to God in sincerity.

Jassy from a position of believing in the power of prayer, it is impossible to keep it to myself, by the very nature of what prayer is...

Yeah, but do you wander around telling atheists and Buddhists and Hindus that you're praying for them? Do what you will, but it would be polite to spare those who aren't interested (atheists) or who might be legitimately offended by the implied 'my god is better than yours'.

See this is the fundamental problem with religion. It just cannot leave other people be...

Now this advert is 'being prayed over'?!

Extrapolation and frothing right there.

I told my Muslim friend yesterday that I was praying for him (he is very angry at the imagined 'Islamophobia' since the IS atrocities, blaming the West for not doing more to de-disenfranchise our Muslim youth).

See this is the fundamental problem with religion. It just cannot leave other people be..

Offred you might one day also consider it the strength, if it motivates someone to help you, when no one else would, if are ever in a situation of desperate need.

Faberge, I think you're projecting a tad there.

It's kind of the definition of 'patronising', though, isn't it? To treat someone else in a way that suggests you know better than they do? It doesn't make the recipient 'delicate' to point out that the person doing it is behaving like a bit of a twat.

I'm an atheist immigrant woman. I get patronised quite a bit, but I have to say it doesn't knock me about too much. Mostly, it helps me distinguish between numpties and non-numpties.

Do you fancy taking on any of the issues being raised, or do you prefer to have a go at the people making the arguments in favour of reasoned and evidenced debate? Interesting approach.

Yes, that is how I feel about having this prayer said over me and my children at the cinema.

If religious people want respect for and protection of their right to practise their chosen religion they simply cannot expect to go around saying prayers over people, trying to convert them or having an utter lack of respect for people when they say they do not want to be subjected to that behaviour.

Do you not know what 'secularist' means?!?

is this directed at me?

if so, I don't know what it means to you, but it absolutely does not mean to me that religion should be banned from the public sphere. If so, where do you draw the line? Can Christians not wear crosses publicly? Can they not hand out leaflets? Advertise events on buses/telee/etc?

What it means to me, and what I think is the accepted meaning, is that no religious organization has a special tie to the government. The government is neutral with respect to any religion.

But private organizations have no such restriction and nor should they.

^
I told my Muslim friend yesterday that I was praying for him (he is very angry at the imagined 'Islamophobia' since the IS atrocities, blaming the West for not doing more to de-disenfranchise our Muslim youth^

Same god, though, right? Still a bit in my book unless you know in advance the person of a different faith doesn't mind.

Yeah, but do you wander around telling atheists and Buddhists and Hindus that you're praying for them?

Jassy I believe prayer can help whether you tell someone they are prayed for or not. This is why it cannot just be kept to myself, it is bigger than just me.

Actually, I can see on reflection how some people of faith may not mind being prayed for by people of a different faith - they appreciate the sentiment although each thinks the other is misguided?

Offred you might one day also consider it the strength, if it motivates someone to help you, when no one else would, if are ever in a situation of desperate need.

or a weakness one someone specifically targets her for her non-belief and refuses to help on those grounds. Rather selective that situation is.

I grew up in a religious household thank you.

I've had more than my fair share of Christian 'help'.

The religious do not have a monopoly on helping/kindness etc. I am involved in plenty of secularist organisations who provide real help to people who are suffering and who are not held back by archaic beliefs re good/evil.

Capsium, you didn't quite answer my question there.

No, it was directed at faberge.

No-one is saying anyone has to be a secularist. People were just pointing out some people are secularist Christians.

Jassy what question?