To ask if you think secondary teachers should have achieved top grades in their subject area

[Teachersshouldbeclever]

I genuinely wonder how, if a secondary teacher was unable to achieve the top grades when they sat their subject, if they are able to teach their students the skills needed.

Or is it a case of the cleverest students actually surpassing their teachers' knowledge and expertise?

Teachers with excellent qualifications in their subject and excellent teaching skills would be nice wouldn't it?
Unfortunately not many people want to be teachers anymore because of ridiculous workloads mainly caused by constant political meddling so you're just going to have to put up with it or contact your MP to do something about the way teachers are treated.

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/teacher-shortage-fears-deepen-almost-one-five-secondary-trainee

Doesn't look like it's going to get better anytime soon then....

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34866850

Yikes!

Bobo your conflating the argument a bit there no? I don't think anyone would think that someone with a degree in music would choose to teach Japanese.

I don't agree with the OP on anything it seems, the point that A kids get As because of their natural ability seems to err on the nature side of the argument. So why bother teaching at all?

Actually having taught a great number of A* kids have to have a I know that they need a range of factors to get there, ability, the willingness to put in enough work to get them there, and good teaching. If we didn't need the good teaching why don't we just stick kids in a room with a txt book and do it that way?

blah, typing on the bus....

The above paragraph should read.

Actually having taught a great number of A* kids I know that...

longtimelurker

I note you have not apologised for your completely unwarranted unpleasantness towards me.

I might understand why a child would struggle with ballet but I would be unable to teach them!

I taught all over the place but believe me, was never asked to teach ballet. ;o)

I do apologise cat, sometimes these teacher bashing threads wind me up too much and I react a bit, sorry for any offence caused. I do fundamentally disagree that teaching is not a profession though..

It isn't 'teacher bashing' to think they should have good qualifications in their area of supposed expertise.

So you wouldn't want me, someone with a very good degree from a Russell group university, and trained to teach that subject, teaching your kids the subject I lead now?

As a said previously, the department I head up has results that make it one of the best schools in the country for what I teach. My indvidual classes get fantastic results, and I've been praised by OFSTED and we're in the good schools guide !

But because I don't have a qualification directly in the subject, you don't think I should teach it? That is why its teacher bashing.

No. I think you have demonstrated the ability to achieve top grades. Every historian won't be an expert in every area of history; every brilliant trombone player won't be able to play the piano. That's absolutely not what I am saying.

But if you are teaching an A level in a subject and have responsibility for students applying to and getting into Oxbridge, it is very weak to claim that you don't need good grades in your own subject area.

I don't have any grades in the subject that I lead, I didn't take it at A level or degree either.

The top students at my school often go to Oxbridge, and one of my responsibilities is developing the program that we put in place for these students. Two students of my year 13 cohort went to Oxford last year to study my subject.

I really think you need to reconsider your points, you don't need top grades yourself in order to facilitate others to get top grades. People with degrees have shown that they have the higher level skills anyway.

Teachersshouldbeclever

But you are now back tracking.

How does a teacher prove that they have an ability to get top grades if you are denying them the chance to teach because they don'e meet your grade requirements?

In which subject should a technology/drama/music/science teacher have top grades before they can teach?

I think an adequate knowledge of their subject and a real ability to teach is probably most important, lots of clever people who would be top in their subject at uni would be hopeless teachers!

No, you want me to be backtracking

I feel a teacher should have demonstrated excellent knowledge of their subject - ideally. This is often in the form of a good degree and good A levels. Usually they will be in the subject they teach. Occasionally they won't be.

But when teachers don't understand the texts they are delivering, make basic errors in imparting linguistic skills and so on - it does suggest some aren't up to teaching the gifted, who are then left to it.

Anyone who is making basic errors will be found out rather quickly, or at least in my experience they are.

Also although good teaching is important, Oxbridge applicants need to be doing far more than just learning in the lesson. Applicants to top universities need to have a lot of self starting motivation, to be outside reading, to be getting involved with subject related activities etc. A good teacher can facilitate that, without having to have the top grades in the subject.

One of the reasons that private schools have better records of getting kids into Oxbridge universities is that they have more time to spend facilitating those students.

I get an hour a week, our students have to be even more self starting than others.

Teachersshouldbeclever

"I feel a teacher should have demonstrated excellent knowledge of their subject - ideally. This is often in the form of a good degree and good A levels. Usually they will be in the subject they teach. Occasionally they won't be."

So do they need a good degree in their subject or not?

How does that good degree and A levels prove an ability to teach?

OP font be coy, tell us what you've got yop grades in.

Or have this

FFS no wonder teachers are leaving the profession, with parents like this ...

My history teacher who was then head of department only got a c in history at GCSE. He was a great teacher, one of my favourites and knowing that he got a poorer result really helped when I got a D in a-level history exam twice I got the A the third time I sat it .

One bad result does not mean they are not qualified to teach a subject

longtimelurker

Many thanks for your reply.

it does suggest some aren't up to teaching the gifted, who are then left to it.

But then, who is?

Maybe the gifted should skip straight to Uni and only be taught by geniouses.

Right, so a PG teaching qualification after eg a music degree will ensure better teaching of physics or Japanese than a physics or Japanese degree with no teaching qualification?

Now, that is just silly. Go and sit in the corner.

OP you fundamentally misunderstand the difference between teaching and learning.

Thing is, you may as well be asking for them all to be tall, good looking and fluent in Urdu as well as there are just not enough people who want to be teachers.

50% + of people who do teacher training leave teaching within two years or never teach- stress, work load, no other life, government policies.

Maths, Physics, English, Chemistry - now facing significant teacher shortages. Needed numbers are not even being trained in these subjects because they can not attract candidates.

Qualities of trainees is weaker- as it would be because univetsities are taking weaker people as the stronger don't apply.

£30,000 bursaries offered to train are an incentive to train. Then they leave within 2 years because salaries are poor, they work 60/70 hours plus a week, marking burdens are HUGE.

650,000 additional children will be in the system in the next 10 years - no plans in place to effectively address this.

Teachers do not want to be school leaders. Headteacher posts are very hard to fill and often get very few applicants. The average number of applicants- never mind the quality- for Headteacher posts is 0.7 Many are advertised 2 or 3 times.

It is a crisis on our doorstep but I await the cries of 'teachers moan about nothing' 'they end their day at 3.30pm' 'all the holidays they get, what are they moaning about?'

If you have a child under the age of 15 or intend to have a child, their experience of education in terms of testing and examination success is about to become inhumane and will more than likely disadvantage them in lfe - unless you are middle class and wealthy in which case the Tories will make sure you are ok.