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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask if you think secondary teachers should have achieved top grades in their subject area

271 replies

Teachersshouldbeclever · 19/11/2015 17:56

I genuinely wonder how, if a secondary teacher was unable to achieve the top grades when they sat their subject, if they are able to teach their students the skills needed.

Or is it a case of the cleverest students actually surpassing their teachers' knowledge and expertise?

OP posts:
jellyfrizz · 22/11/2015 09:28

OP, would you want your high flying offspring to be a teacher?

gwenneh · 22/11/2015 09:33

Definitely not.

I have a first in my subject. I would be completely incapable of teaching it to someone else -- it's truly not something I have the aptitude for.

Someone who truly has the gift for teaching probably doesn't need top qualifications in their subject, they just need to understand it well.

Keeptrudging · 22/11/2015 11:12

How is 'quality of trainees weaker'? There were over 300 applicants for my teacher training course, but only 30 places. All of us had a 2.1 or higher. Hardly poor quality.

cleaty · 22/11/2015 11:25

Absolutely not. The best Maths teacher I had at Secondary was not great at maths, but was superb at explaining maths. The Head of Department who had a 1st class Maths degree, was terrible at explaining maths to those who were struggling to get it.

Lweji · 22/11/2015 11:45

All of us had a 2.1 or higher. Hardly poor quality.

But the op wants you all only to have first class degrees.

noblegiraffe · 22/11/2015 11:55

Gove wanted all teachers to have 2:2s or above. But he had to back down in the case of Physics and Maths. Now you can be paid £9000 to train to teach maths or physics with a 3rd in a relevant degree and an A-level grade B.

jellyfrizz · 22/11/2015 12:14

My physics A level teacher studied physics at Cambridge. He showed us how every formula was derived in a flurry of writing. We didn't need to know that.

All of us who got a C or above in that class did so because we had private tutoring outside school.

Philoslothy · 22/11/2015 12:27

i find it very sad that there seems to be a general assumption that having a strong academic background means that your interpersonal skills are lacking. I think that strong academic results should be an essential part of being a teacher. I am making this up of the top of my head but B or above at GCSE in Maths and English and A or above in an associated subject at GCSE and A Level. Ideally a linked degree of a 2:1 or above. However that is never going to happen because we can't recruit teachers with the current expectations and therefore we can't raise the bar. I do wonder if the assumption that teaching is for mediocre people is part of the problem in terms of attracting top graduates.

I also think we need to be careful of painting teaching as some kind of mysterious alchemy only open to the few. I was crap when I started, people showed me what to do and I got better. It is not mysterious, you speak clearly, praise those who get it right, discipline those who misbehave, check their work and offer tips to improve. If they are willing to take advice most intelligent people can teach successfully.

WhereYouLeftIt · 22/11/2015 12:29

No, I don't think secondary teachers should have to have achieved top grades in their subject area. It's frankly a nonsensical idea.

A teacher needs that tricky balance of subject knowledge, the ability to explain it to someone coming from a standing start, and the ability to make that explanation inspire the pupil to look deeper for themselves. (Being able to control a class is also pretty handy.) There's no guarantee that a first class honours, top of their year graduate would have those other skills that make for a good teacher.

I went through secondary in the 1970's. One of my favourite (and best) teachers at school didn't even have a degree in the subject he taught - he taught Chemistry and his degree was in Geology. He was fantastic, an inspiring teacher who held us all rapt.

Original poster
Teachersshouldbeclever · 22/11/2015 12:37

Philosothy has summed up my own thoughts on this beautifully. Thank you.

OP posts:
Lweji · 22/11/2015 12:39

You do need quite a lot of Chemistry to know Geology. They're not totally unrelated subjects.

As a biologist I have also learnt Chemistry, Geology, Physics, Maths and would be able to teach them at a lower more basic level.

Lweji · 22/11/2015 12:42

It's still the case that not all people can be great teachers and it's not necessarily the ones with the best grades on a subject that can teach well.
Surely that's not hard to understand.

Philoslothy · 22/11/2015 12:45

I think that more people can be great teachers than we assume - with the right support. Of course not everyone who is academic can be a great teacher just like not everyone who is academic can make a great doctor.

SummerNights1986 · 22/11/2015 12:48

The best Maths teacher I had at Secondary was not great at maths, but was superb at explaining maths

I think, with something like maths, that is absolute bollocks tbh.

With something practical...I don't know, knitting maybe...I fully understand how you may be an excellent tutor in it because you've learnt the theory well, but just may not have the physical skills or dexterity to actually be able to do it yourself.

With maths, to be able to explain it effectively you need to understand it. Otherwise, a teacher just as well chuck a text book at a student instead and leave them to it.

I don't agree, or see how it's possible at all for someone 'not great at maths' to be a 'superb' maths teacher at higher levels. It makes no sense at all.

ReallyTired · 22/11/2015 12:49

Its easier to improve subject knowledge than make a teacher have a clear speaking voice and choose the right words to explain a concept.

Failure of any exam should not bar someone from teaching forever. Especially as GCSEs, A-levels and to a lesser extent a degree is taken at quite a young age. I am in favour of teachers proving that they got subject knowledge, but there are lots of way this can be done.

Teachers need opportunities to develop and keep up subject knowledge through out their careers. Learning is a life long occupation.

Philoslothy · 22/11/2015 12:55

Its easier to improve subject knowledge than make a teacher have a clear speaking voice and choose the right words to explain a concept

I am not sure that I agree, I needed help on both counts, it was just a case of acting on advice.

I agree it would be difficult to put into practice, is somebody had a B at A level but then a 2:1 at a degree you would want to accept them. It is all irrelevant anyway because we can't keep and recruit teachers as it is.

ReallyTired · 22/11/2015 13:05

"I am not sure that I agree, I needed help on both counts, it was just a case of acting on advice."

The failure of rate of the PGCE I attempted was incredibly high. Out of the 23 people who started a PGCE in science (all of them had an lower second or above) only about 8 made it to the end of the course. To make it worse not all of those 8 completed their NQT year.

I didn't get to the end of the PGCE course because I was not give support about managing behaviour. My voice did not help me command authority because it is too high pitch. My subject knowledge was considered to be excellent.

I feel that teacher training providers need to look at the selection of candidiates for teacher training. They also need to look at how to develop effective teachers. 8/23 is a miserable success rate, a waste of govenment money and the trainees time.

jellyfrizz · 22/11/2015 13:07

Philoslothy, I do wonder if the assumption that teaching is for mediocre people is part of the problem in terms of attracting top graduates.

Yes, I think this would be part of the problem the other part is that it's terribly paid in comparison to most other jobs a 'top graduate' might choose and that's before even looking at the terrible work-life balance and constantly changing goal posts.

Shopgirl1 · 22/11/2015 13:11

I think in an ideal world teachers would have achieved top marks in their subject at school and have had a talent for it, but then they would have results that would gain access to other more lucrative things...there is a vocation element to teaching.
I trained as a language teacher, got A's in my languages at school and did well in uni, then realised combined with business my subjects could earn me a lot more elsewhere. With a family to support the money factor is important. I also think in practice teaching would have bored me, teaching to a level I surpassed at 18. Teaching is also a stressful job now with tonnes of paperwork and extras and for some reason we don't value teachers really anymore....i think its really a calling or desire to share your knowledge with young people despite all the negatives that come with the profession, not just a talent for your subject and the people with that calling may not be the people who got As themselves in school.

cleaty · 22/11/2015 13:11

Well she was. Because she understood how to explain the concepts of maths in a variety of ways. But I think her degree was a third class one.

Philoslothy · 22/11/2015 13:17

I agree "jelly frizz* although they were not my reasons for leaving teaching. I do think that some people don't even get to the point of rejecting teaching for workload reasons because they can't get past the image problem that teaching has as a career for mediocre people.

Original poster
Teachersshouldbeclever · 22/11/2015 13:19

I do feel that while the work/life balance is undoubtedly an issue in teaching, it is exacerbated by the fact that teacher recruitment selects those who don't have a good understanding in the first place.

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 22/11/2015 13:21

A third in maths still makes you bloody good at maths, compared, for example to the general population, 40% of whom can't even get a C at GCSE maths.

Most maths teachers won't have a maths degree anyway.

noblegiraffe · 22/11/2015 13:23

I had voice coaching on my PGCE. My voice was too boring so I had to practise reading out children's stories with expression. It did help.

jellyfrizz · 22/11/2015 13:51

Teachersshouldbe if you want top graduates then the job needs to be attractive in some way, they have many other, far more attractive options. At the moment teaching falls down in every aspect you would consider when selecting a career - pay, conditions, career advancement, job satisfaction, work/life balance.

Would you encourage your children to be teachers at the moment? If the answer is no, ask yourself why.

Add to this the fact that experienced teachers are leaving because of the terrible conditions and things start to get really worrying.