To feel slightly put out at the implication that IVF babies are more precious?

[jollyfrenchy]

As part of a discussion about choking and cutting grapes for small children, one lady said she also wouldn't be giving her daughter raw apple or carrot pieces until she was 5 years old for fear of choking. When she was then told she was being a bit overly paranoid. In response she agreed, but explained it by saying that it took 11 years of trying and 2 rounds of IVF to have her daughter, and she wasn't willing to take any risks at all.

Now, I do understand that sort of experience has an effect on you, but I slightly resent the implication that her child is somehow more precious than others. Kind of like, "Oh well you can afford to take risks, you've got three kids, and anyway, you if you lost one you could always have another. This is the only one I've got and will ever have so I need to look after her more."

Er, no every one of my children is as precious and important as yours, it's just that in life you have to take risks and eating apples is a risk I'm prepared for them to take.

Also surely it's not beneficial to your oh so precious child's well being to wrap them in cotton wool and never take ANY risk with them. In a similar way I know people who had a hard time having their baby or who adopted after years of heartache, who then go on to completely spoil the child (never say no, let them have their own way all the time etc) because they're so grateful to have them. Again, not doing the child any favours really.

I had my dd a few months before my sil's much longed for ivf baby arrived. A drunk friend was talking to both of us a short time after they were all born and said to sil in front of me 'your baby is so special, so precious' and then quickly (digging a hole) to me 'oh, yours is nice too but just not as special, you know'.

I rarely am movitated to frown at someone but she was just being clumsy. I know she didn't mean any harm but I do always remember it. Poor girl being remembered for something she was possibly scarlet about the next day.

Oops just realised there was a few pages of pointless rowing before my post. Having come late and had a quick read, sorry Annie but you seem determined to fixate on your point that is actually a bit off the mark. I know what you are trying to say but you are getting angry with people when you have misunderstood them or read too far into their comments.

Come off it, Cactus has a point, people did post those things.

I don't see why saying your child is more precious than another's is upsetting? Surely every parent thinks their child is the most precious child/ren in the world.

If a building was on fire, I'd save mine first and she was a whoops baby, all parents would. All parents think their child is the most precious and important above all others. Those that say otherwise are lying, back to my burning building scenario they'd save theirs first and if that doesn't say theirs is more important I don't know what does.

That said, just because my baby is the best baby doesn't mean I think other babies are expendable or replaceable. No sane person actually thinks that.

But if a person has worked hard to get a child with all the treatments and invasive procedures, then yes. I'd say that's cause for a little extra celebration, because you're not just celebrating a baby you're celebrating all the work that went into it as well.

Another way to think of it is this: A dyslexic kid passes a reading test with an A, a NT kid who's always been naturally good at reading also passes with an A. Common sense would say the dyslexic kid deserves a little extra fuss and celebration because the grade itself isn't the full picture. It doesn't take away from your own child to say the same thing about a person who went through IVF. A secure person would know this.

My DD was born after nearly $100,000 of IVF treatment.

I guess it's like the difference between being given something for free and working hard for years then selling your house to buy it. Would you feel 'more precious' about the thing in the second scenario? I think you probably would.

So many excellent posts on this thread. Especially Maryz, and I also agree with RiverTam when comparing it to degrees to take the emotive part out of it. The more difficult it was to come by, the more you realise how lucky you are to finally have it. You see it from a different perspective than other people, because of your own experience.

That's all anyone means. Some people seem to be determined to take offence rather than looking at the situation with empathy. It doesn't mean more precious as in worth more, or "better than". It just reflects the awful hard-fought, long endured battle to get there that the parent's went through, and what that can do to someone's anxiety levels. Of course other things can cause anxiety too, but surely 99% of people can appreciate why 11 years of infertility/treatment would make someone feel that way!

CactusAnnie just back off. You seem to have some sort of agenda, and are determined to make this all about people thinking that it doesn't matter if your children die. Nobody thinks that. Is it an attention thing, perhaps?

And yes, this thread is a perfect example of why women who struggle with fertility need to keep it to themselves, which is unbelievable. And so very sad.

MissDallas I don't think it works that way for children, what with them not being consumer items.

My first child was stillborn following several rounds of ivf treatment. It is impossible for us to conceive naturally. When I lost my son I was not only grieving for the child I had lost (which I believe would be the same for anyone who had a stillbirth) but also felt that I had blown my only chance of having a child. Six months later I had to come off baby loss sites because most of those who had lost a child were either pregnant again or planning another pregnancy whereas I had had another failed ivf although I was very lucky in that ivf did eventually work again.
So although I don't believe that any child is more precious, I do think that other circumstances can add to the overall distress or anxiety felt.

Can I just reiterate that what people might genuinely feel (and there's no evidence that OP's acquaintance does in fact feel this) doesn't actually make any difference to how you feel about your child. (but 11 years?! Seriously, some of you have no empathy for someone who might be an anxious parent after trying for 11 YEARS?!)

When I decided to adopt a second I was concerned about not loving a second child as much as I love DS, it was a serious stumbling block. Because your love for your child is so much more consuming than you've felt before that you can't imagine feeling that again (well, OK I couldn't, obviously some of you had no such concerns). Maybe people who conceived after a struggle do really think that the reason they feel so intensely is because of the wait. Maybe they do. It's impossible to get inside someones head and feel what they feel.

It's impossible for me to know if what I feel for DS compares to what you feel about your birth children and I've had several "discussions" with sometimes regular posters who make it clear that they don't believe it can be.

I don't understand the competitive love, being vitriolic about people for thinking they feel differently about their child than you do about yours. Maybe you're just not used to it.

But I am. And trust me in the end the only way to sanity is to love your child more than you ever thought it was possible - what other people think of that love or how they measure it is of zero interest to me and has no impact on me or my child.

Cactus>>

Cactus, you have brought any "savaging" entirely on your own head with your aggressive, rude and mean-minded posts. Not one poster has said that it matters less if your child dies than theirs. You are wilfully misreading posts for some reason,

FWIW, I don't think I love DD1 any more intensely because she was an IVF baby. But I do know, from conversations with close friends, that I am more CONSCIOUS that my life could have been very, very different (and poorer) very, very easily and I am thankful every single day that things turned out as they did. I don't believe that is something that is at the forefront of my friends' minds (because they've told me so). I think that is all most people are trying to get across. It's not a competition about who loves their kids more.

Bloody hell Cactus
When you are in a hole, stop digging

This is all coming across as a bit 'I'm not racist, I've got a black friend'

I hope you do leave your posts are just nasty.
Sympathy? All i Can see is you attacking an already down poster.

I believe that what I went through has made me a more anxious parent but anxiety isn't a measure of how much a child is loved.

BUT it's not for you, AyeAmarok , or for any other similar posters on this thread, to say "The more difficult it was to come by, the more you realise how lucky you are to finally have it."

Well I'm glad you're off elsewhere, frankly.

And I can say this, actually. People tend to be the sum of their experiences in life. Experiences, good and bad, tend to have an influence on how we think about things.

Taking non-child examples. If one had a parent who nearly died from cancer, you'd be likely to think afterwards at times "I very nearly lost my mum, I'm so glad she's still here". Every time you need her advice and she spends hours helping you you might have a moment where you consider that you very, very nearly didn't have that. And how different and hard your life would be without her, and how you are so, grateful you do. You don't love her more, you just have a different perspective.

Or another example, the people who were in the Bataclan a week ago.

Do I think if it came down to it in future in a straight choice between my life and theirs that their life should trump mine or be valued more preciously than mine because of their experience? No. But do I think they will have a totally different perspective on life now than I do? And feel especially lucky to be here? Of course I do. And I'd expect their families to feel the exact same way.

FWIW I do understand Cactus's point of view and agree with it.

It doesn't conflict with my own views at all really. She's just not very good at reading between the lines.

Ayeamok
yes agree, after losing a parent suddenly it makes me more anxious over the parent i have left.
Before yes ofcourse i worried about losing a parent (especially the one i lost as were so close) but now i'm over anxious as they're the only one i have left.

I have been thinking of a way explaining it - this isnt very good but this is what I came up with...
So you're told you can never the leave your house again - or you might be able to at some point in the future - if you pay a lot of money for a treatment that might or might not work.

Then I suspect - suspect because I do not know but can empathise - going outside might be the one thing you want to do, every day you are consumed with the hope of feeling the rain, the wind, and some sun. Lots of other people can have some sun, why cant I? I am trapped inside my house, possibly forever.

One day they say oh look you can go outside after all.

You'd bloody love it wouldnt you? A bit of sleet and puddles etc would suddenly seem like the best gift in the world.

Obviously within a few months the rain etc would get to be a normal part of your life and become annoying/irritating etc but there would always be a part of you that thinks be grateful that you have the chance to feel irritated by the weather.

I dont look at my IVF son and think he's a miracle (ok maybe i did for the first couple of years) - I look at him and think wipe the cheerio off your cheek and tuck your shirt in, just like every other mother.

But every now and again I think Oh My God we have a child! An actual child.
I feel exactly the same about my (non IVF) daughter.
Every child is amazing and every mother feels that. I really dont think anyone is claiming their child is more precious than yours - just that part of our brains are also going Oh My God!

Apologises to those readers currently stuck inside their houses if this post seems insensitive. I sincerely hope you get to feel a little rain some day.

Cactus

The woman described in the OP didn't ever say her child was 'more precious' than others. She simply described her own feelings.

The 'more precious' was the OP's interpretation and it seems like people have picked it up and run with it, as though the woman had said 'Screw you and your unimportant children. My daughter is worth ten of your insignificant offspring.'

People have talked about their children being 'more precious' to them because of the difficulty in conceiving them. More precious than if they'd conceived easily. People have talked about appreciating what they have more than if they'd conceived easily. They're not saying they love their children more, or that other parents don't give a shit about their children. Simply that they're more aware of the extraordinary good luck of having their children in their lives. The poster who said that her grandchild would have been the 'most precious baby ever' was clearly referring to her own feelings, and not making any sort of objective assessment of that child's value within society.

I have 2 children and I'm pregnant with the third. All conceived with incredible ease. I don't go around thinking how lucky I am unless I'm confronted with how it could have been. For example, a thread like this makes me think about it and appreciate what I have, but if I hadn't read it, my extreme good fortune probably wouldn't have entered my head today.

Other people's feelings about their hard-won children don't affect my own feelings for mine. They don't make me a less grateful or loving parent than I would have been. Everyone's child is more precious to them than other children. It would be weird if that wasn't the case. That doesn't mean they expect others to agree with them.

Interesting someone brought up parents. To turn it in its head, right now I reckon my mum is more precious to me than maybe someone else's mum is to them, particularly someone young with hake and hearty parents, grandparents, maybe even great gps. Because my mum is all I have left of the older generation. GPs dead many years ago, dad died unexpectedly young 14 years ago, she's about to turn 80. When she goes, which I hope won't be for many years, I won't have any parents left. Which will make it a very different thing to when my dad died. I don't know why but now that she's going to be 80, it suddenly seems that she's old. That we might not have that many years left with her, and that we need to make the most of those years.

Did I think any of that when I was 15? Or 20? Or 25? No. My parents weren't precious to me in the way my mum is now.

Death changes everything, be it the death of a person or the death of your hopes and dreams. And if someone or something comes back from the brink, of course it becomes more precious. How can it not?

Op I too think you are reading too much into it. As others have said she was just excusing her extra vigilance due to the difficult journey to parenthood she had.
I was trying for a baby for 2 years. Dh had fertility issues and I can honestly say it was the worst 2 years of my life. I wass depressed every time af came and found myself having awful thoughts. Eg I would resent mums smoking whilst pushing their little ones in a pram. Even worse when a friend had a miscarriage I gave her lots of support but inwardly thought "at least she can get pregnant"
I feel so ashamed of this as I went on to have 3 lovely dc with a couple of miscarriages on the way and now know how devastating a miscarriage can be. Stillbirth or losing a child is much much worse.
A bit of kindness goes a long way.

"But you have no right to go around telling other people how they feel about their own children - that they don't realise they're lucky like you do."

But NOBODY is doing that! Your entire argument hinges on a fallacy. People are talking about how they feel about their own children, not comparing the specialness of their children with those of other parents. Like Senpai says, everyone feels that their children are the most precious in the world to them. There is no objective universal measure of parental love.