To feel slightly put out at the implication that IVF babies are more precious?

[jollyfrenchy]

As part of a discussion about choking and cutting grapes for small children, one lady said she also wouldn't be giving her daughter raw apple or carrot pieces until she was 5 years old for fear of choking. When she was then told she was being a bit overly paranoid. In response she agreed, but explained it by saying that it took 11 years of trying and 2 rounds of IVF to have her daughter, and she wasn't willing to take any risks at all.

Now, I do understand that sort of experience has an effect on you, but I slightly resent the implication that her child is somehow more precious than others. Kind of like, "Oh well you can afford to take risks, you've got three kids, and anyway, you if you lost one you could always have another. This is the only one I've got and will ever have so I need to look after her more."

Er, no every one of my children is as precious and important as yours, it's just that in life you have to take risks and eating apples is a risk I'm prepared for them to take.

Also surely it's not beneficial to your oh so precious child's well being to wrap them in cotton wool and never take ANY risk with them. In a similar way I know people who had a hard time having their baby or who adopted after years of heartache, who then go on to completely spoil the child (never say no, let them have their own way all the time etc) because they're so grateful to have them. Again, not doing the child any favours really.

Absolutely river .When my dad died when I was 20 it was awful but losing my mum was far worse. She was my only parent for more than half my life and was the last of the older generation on my side.

northern

To go with examples not child related.

People who have survived a life-threatening illness or event often say they appreciate life so much more afterwards.

They are not saying their life is more important that someone else's life, or even that they appreciate their life more than people who haven't been through something similar, they are saying they personally appreciate life more than they used to because of the experience they went through.

They are saying that they realise how close they came to losing their life and the experience has changed them, they are different in many ways and one of those ways is an increased appreciation of their own life.

They may also be saying that the event was so big that they view things now as before the event and afterwards, and can see how markedly they have been changed by it.

Maybe the woman in the OP's post would have been a much less anxious parent if she hadn't waited so long for her child. Maybe she would have felt exactly the same as she does now.

I suspect I might have been less anxious if we hadn't been through loss. Yes we knew we could conceive. But staying pregnant was difficult, required operations and interventions and we still lost two babies, I nearly died, and we nearly lost DS at the 11th hour of my pregnancy with him. We didn't know if we would ever manage a full term pregnancy and even if we did we were not guaranteed a child who survived it.

That has an effect on people, it changes you in ways both good and bad. I would have been a different parent if we hadn't had those experiences. Maybe not a better or worse one, but a different one. Perhaps I would have the same concerns but not to the same extreme as now.

Things like this, loss and infertility, can hold a magnifying glass up to your existing fears and insecurities and make them grow, but talking about that doesn't mean you are saying other parents don't share the same worries, or have less to lose.

Basically it's just saying "I wouldn't be this way, except that this happened to us, and now everything seems that little bit more frightening to me that it did before and it's changed me."

That is all the woman in the OP's post actually said. She admits she is an overly paranoid parent, the reason being because after eleven years of trying to conceive, which included two rounds of IVF, taking risks with her child that some other parents judge to be acceptable or which they don't consider as risks at all, is just too frightening for her now because she does have that experience behind her.

I can't imagine that she wants to feel that way, or enjoys it, but it's what her experience has brought her to, and that's all she really said. She didn't say her child was more precious or special, she acknowledged her own fears and explained why she has them.

The rest of the OP's post was made up in the OP's own head.

Toughasoldboots

I think it mainly kicked off when CactusAnne said that the following comment from kerbs was "disgusting and stupid":

"It's a different kind of torture, watching your child suffer this way. She will be childless now, but if she had conceived it would have been the most precious child ever. "

It is abundantly clear to me, and surely to most sensible people reading, that the phrase "the most precious child ever" is not meant to imply some objective superiority over every other child in the known universe: but how kerbs' own family would feel about any such child. With that in mind, calling kerbs "disgusting and stupid" is a bit much, really.

Hygge, exactly this:

"Things like this, loss and infertility, can hold a magnifying glass up to your existing fears and insecurities and make them grow, but talking about that doesn't mean you are saying other parents don't share the same worries, or have less to lose.

Basically it's just saying "I wouldn't be this way, except that this happened to us, and now everything seems that little bit more frightening to me that it did before and it's changed me."

I think one of the most annoying thing about this post is the people who posted about how they think because they paid for their child it equals it being more valuable or valued compared to a mother who got pregnant first round and then popped it.

I think their pride is not in the fact that they waited a long time but more in the price and anguish and self entitlement. They didn't have to rub it into other people's faces to make them feel like they had it easy when they have no idea what someone would have gone through during pregnancy first time round or even afterwards.

Would a person who spent 11 years value theirs more than a person who spent 5 or 2? How about those who could not afford to sell a house they didn't own to pay and adopted instead. Do you get to look at them differently for not trying hard enough?

What am asking here is not referring to the woman op posted about because I understand the grape cutting. I actually go even further by leaving it in boiled water and peeling it off and cut it into two or even four depending on the size. Mainly, because it helps reduce the constipation my daughter gets sometimes.

Hygge
Yes i nearly died and im still stuck with something that could kill me so little things that other people would shake off terrify me.

I haven't RTFT but I can see why parents who had to go through IVF to have a baby would feel the way described by the OP.

I know a lot of couples who've had to use IVF, both professionally and personally, and hearing their journey can be so emotional, I think it's amazing and an absolute blessing that they've been able to have their child.

I admittedly have been known to use the term, "So she's extra special then" or "so a truly precious baby then" when I hear of a child having been conceived via IVF.

I don't think anyone who hasn't had to go through IVF should feel they have the right to tell such couples how they should or shouldn't view their baby.

@Writerwannabe I admittedly have been known to use the term, "So she's extra special then" or "so a truly precious baby then" when I hear of a child having been conceived via IVF.**

That is what annoyed me the most. Comments like yours.

debbriana I'm not sure if I inderstood your post correctly but are you saying that those who have struggled with infertility or miscarriage or whatever are 'self-entitled' and have 'pride'? I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. On the face of it, it seems like a rather - novel, shall we say - viewpoint.

Wannabe, When they say that without adding " to me", it sounds narcissistic.

debbriana - But when I say that it's not because I think their baby is more precious or special than anyone else's baby, but just to show I'm sympathetic towards what a difficult and emotional journey they must have been through.

In future would you say the child is special to the person, rather than special?

Surely the "to you" is implied in what Writer says? I would never use the term 'precious baby' myself, but I might say something like "what extra wonderful news"

"They didn't have to rub it into other people's faces to make them feel like they had it easy"

This is the thing, though. People who talk about their own experiences are not rubbing anything into anyone's face. They're not talking about how you should or do feel. They're talking about how they feel.

I can see how at a very literal level, the logical corollary of "my child is extra special" is "and therefore, your child is not quite so special" but that's not what anyone actually means. They're not talking about you! They're talking about themselves. And as loads of people have said: everyone thinks their child is special. That's what we're supposed to think! that's what drives the survival of species: if no-one was any more bothered about their own offspring than anyone else's, we wouldn't spend years looking after our own children until they were old enough to look after themselves.

Another thing that's just occurred to me is the commonly used MN term pfb - precious first born. Surely that phrase, in and of itself, implies that yes, some babies are more precious than others, precious in the sense that everything seems so important to get 'right' etc. People say so often, oh don't be so pfb, wait till you have your second (without a thought that for some people there will be no second). I don't notice posters getting hauled over the coals for using this phrase? Should it be expunged from MN?

Rivertam the ones am referring to are those who say that should be allowed to say that the child is better loved, more loved, more precious because they spent so much money and waited song. Am sorry, but that to me is entitlement.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem thinking that every child is special but that child is only special to the people who think he or she is. For example, the parents or close people to the family. But, please do not impose the preciousness of your child onto another mother who may not have dealt with infertility but may have other issues as a result of child bearing or a mother who was lucky and things happened without a hitch. trying to make them feel guilty for not being able to cope because they had it easy or trying to impose the view to the world their child is second best.

I had four miscarriages before having ds, and had a few concerns with his pg. Then had dd two years later, totally straightforward pregnancy. I do not feel he is the slightest bit more "precious" than she is because of it.

But I was 10000 times more anxious throughout the pregnancy with him than I was with her, and the same when he was a baby. Because the anxiety and stress and unhappiness and desperation of having multiple consecutive miscarriages thwarted my ability to relax and enjoy being pg with him as I was worried throughout I would miscarry. It totally changes things.

But as I said, it does not mean he is more precious than dd because of it, just that I was more anxious.

..."More loved or more precious because of how much money they have spent...."

I can't believe that any parent who had to use IVF would ever think like this? I would imagine that in comparison to having their baby, the amount of money they had to spend is absolutely meaningless to them.

Thanks river

"But, please do not impose the preciousness of your child onto another mother who may not have dealt with infertility but may have other issues as a result of child bearing or a mother who was lucky and things happened without a hitch. trying to make them feel guilty for not being able to cope because they had it easy or trying to impose the view to the world their child is second best."

We must be reading different threads because I can't see anyone here who has done that. The OP herself makes it clear that she imagined that's what the person she is complaining about really meant, but that's not what this person said even in the OP's account.

people who posted about how they think because they paid for their child it equals it being more valuable or valued compared to a mother who got pregnant first round and then popped it.

Can you point out where that happened on this thread, please, Debbriana, because I can't find it.

Rivertam, that term 'precious first born' is used ironically on MN. It's making fun of the idea of any child being intrinsically more precious than any other and gently poking fun at overprotective parents.

Of all the things to get into a pissing contest over, who loves their child more has to be one of the most obnoxious. The parents who really are driven by love for their children, rather than self-promotion and holier-than-thou pissiness, won't indulge in this tastelessness.

It's been explained over and over, by posters such as Maryz who are far more articulate than I am, that nobody is claiming their child is inherently worth more than any others. It's just that some women had such a painful, difficult time in getting to become mothers that it has affected how they feel about parenting. It is not about you, OP, or your children, or anyone else and their children. It is about the mother herself, her experiences and her feelings. How anyone could feel offended by this is beyond me.

"Of all the things to get into a pissing contest over, who loves their child more has to be one of the most obnoxious. The parents who really are driven by love for their children, rather than self-promotion and holier-than-thou pissiness, won't indulge in this tastelessness"

But you're doing it too, in a way! The overwhelming majority of people love their kids. Even pissy self-promoting people. It's like a parenting baseline.