to think Mumsnet should delete posts in which women are called cis

[violetsarentblue]

I (and I imagine quite a lot of women on here) are fed up with being referred to as cis. I find the term deeply insulting.
I'm a woman and prefer to be addressed as a 'woman', not a cis woman.

I noticed MN are quick to delete posts where transgender people are called 'he' instead of 'she', because that group of people find the term insulting and MN don't want to offend.

Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes.

Please - could we have the same depth of consideration for our wishes?

Thank you.

Several definitions in the thread,jadore.

YANBU

Nail on the head Toad.

Perhaps it would be better if she could just be allowed to be herself and not forced into some kind of gender role that she might feel she has to rebel against when she's older.

Precisely, we need to stop labeling behaviour as belonging to a particular gender. All that does is stifles children and restricts them from growing into the person they want to be.

If a girl has short hair and climbs a tree she is a tree climbing, short haired girl. She is not a tom boy.

If a boy has long hair and is quiet and caring he is a caring long haired boy, not a cissy.

Totally agree, LumpySpaced.

This is an absolutely fascinating and really thought-provoking thread; thanks for starting it, OP. I found Didactylos's post particularly useful:

*many trans people believe their birth identified sex (biology/chromosomes/genitals) matters less than gender (chosen or felt identity/societal role)
many women believe their birth identified sex (biology/chromosomes/genitals) is the material reality that has caused them to be socialised into a gender (identity/social role) whether they identify with it or not

to me two positions are more akin to enantiomers than any other form of isomerism - e.g. mirror image symmetry and therefore not able to be superimposed on each other*

To put it in less chemistry-inspired language: the very idea of 'transgender' and 'cisgender' posits the idea of gender identity as something that an individual can choose to identify with. On the other hand, many branches of feminism perceive gender as an identity that is forced upon people by socialisation and by societal structures.

Because 'cisgender' is a term that comes out of a certain way of viewing gender and how it works within the world, it is not a neutral term. A PP above said that if women objected to cisgender because they did not feel their sex matched their gender than they should just come out as genderqueer. I feel that this is a complete misunderstanding: I do not identify as any gender because I don't think gender works that way. Insisting that I am cisgender or should call myself that is nothing more or less than an insistence that one group's beliefs about gender should supersede mine.

YY Hovis. When challenged on my rejection of "cis" I have politely answered much the same in other online debates because it never comes up in real life, that it is founded in a belief about gender that I don't share and therefore I don't accept the term. Basically I'm saying let's agree to disagree but please respect my wishes. But of course that is never good enough and its my "cis privilege" talking.

Toad's post is very good. This sentence particularly stood out:

"It cannot be right for men who decide they're women to get a free victim card."

This is one of the things that's bothering me. Whenever a feminist points out that part of the experience of being female is to be discriminated against, to be the victim of limited expectations, to be sexually harassed and patronised from an early age, a transactivist will always say that transwomen get abused too for being trans. Now that may be true (and obviously I think that any abuse of people, trans or otherwise, is wrong), but do trans women really have to fight against male authority and expectations in the way girls and women do?

Great thread, thank you all for making me think.

Toads post is great

I dread to think how I would turn out as an adult, if I was a child now.

From the age of 5 I refused to wear dresses or skirts, declaring URGHH they are horrible and I why can't I alway wear trousers like boys. My parents said fine. At seven I had my hair cut into a short boy style.
I didn't play with dolls the ones that had been bought for me like Cindy, I would cut the hair off and pull the arms and legs off to see the how they were put together. I played with lego and build spaceships, cars and robots with it. I played in trees, built dens and waded along muddy ditches. A dolls pram was folded up and I used it as a sort of push along go kart. Same with the big yellow Cindy cars two hands on the car bent over run as fast as you could around the house or street.

I sometimes played mummy and daddys or Cindy at friends houses, I also had a couple of "Tom boy" friends aswell as boys to play with. We had He man figures, starwars, superman and transformers, never sherah that was just urgh...

Age 10 I started experimenting with skirts and dresses, but only for formal occasions like wedding, big family celebrations. But they had to be simple and plain definitely not fussy or frilly.

My mum just took heart in the fact, she could take my cousin clothes shopping and indulge in sparkles and lacey stuff.

As a young teen I still prominently wore boys jeans and boys jumpers and t-shirts. I was not in the slightest interested in nail varnish, make up, hair stuff or jewellery. I did have long hair that I just kept in a pony tail, but only because I couldn't be bothered with a hairdressers. My mum would eventually convince me to let her trim the split ends off.

Mid teens I was sexually active, I fancied boys, I had started wearing make up ......well eyeliner anyway. My hair was still just a ponytail. I shopped in Boy's shops for clothes and wore lynks.

Late teens, I'd left school 16 and felt a grown up and had slowly introduced skirts blouses and dresses into my wardrobe, and little more makeup. I worked in a very very male dominated environment, But by 19 decided to change career.

Now as an adult, I still wear little make up, hate clothes shopping, don't bother with accessories, or jewellery, although I do have a few for when I get to go out somewhere nice. I do love getting done up and going out. I live in jeans or leggings and in summer I wear summer dresses on hot days.

I have 2 dc, and a loving DH.

Up untill these recent threads I never ever thought of anything like transgenda. I'm just me it's just my personality.

I've not lived in a little heterosexual bubble, as in my late teens my chore friends were gaymen, lesbians, drag queens and transsexuals. Non off them or my straight friends ever thought I was anything other than just me.

I really can't imagine how confusing it would be, if lots of 'helpful' people told me midteens, I was transgender.

I'm a woman, I am female, I identify as me.

Great post jorah!
It's worrying that some young people could end up being forced down a path they don't want to take, all for being themselves.

Kids are now being told that if they are female but don't like pink and ponies "Hey, you're transgender!", and if they're male but don't like monster trucks and blue, "You're transgender too!"

No. You just haven't been taken in by all this bullshit of gender roles and stereotypes. That's not something to be ashamed of or to try and explain away, or to make yourself fit into a different box instead - that's shaming young people for being who they are, and suggesting they should change the way they look to fit their personality.

I have no doubt that if I was a few years younger, I'd have been taken in by that and convinced that I am transgender and 'feel like a man', whereas I'm actually just a woman who doesn't fit society's expectations of women, and happy like that. I worry for my brother and sister, both of whom are the opposite of what society expects of their sex. At 16 and 14 they're both at the age where they will be taken in by this bullshit and may make decisions they'll regret. I can't imagine many people have found it easy to go back a few years later and say "Actually you know what, I don't really think I want to live as a woman, I'll go back to being Dave".

If people are deleted for calling me "cis" I would personally get cross. If I was deleted for calling myself "cis" I would be livid. Fine if you don't think it applies to you and you are taking it as an insult but personally I don't give a fuck and I don't expect to be told what should offend me.

I really can't imagine how confusing it would be, if lots of 'helpful' people told me midteens, I was transgender.

I'm a woman, I am female, I identify as me.

MyLife, Exactly,

Because 'cisgender' is a term that comes out of a certain way of viewing gender and how it works within the world, it is not a neutral term. A PP above said that if women objected to cisgender because they did not feel their sex matched their gender than they should just come out as genderqueer. I feel that this is a complete misunderstanding: I do not identify as any gender because I don't think gender works that way. Insisting that I am cisgender or should call myself that is nothing more or less than an insistence that one group's beliefs about gender should supersede mine. [Hovis]

Fickle, focus on the bold, and try to understand why 'cis' is a term that many women categorically reject.

Feminists have fought the concept of gender ever since there were feminists. Feminists have fought the assumptions that go along with it, and the terrible effects of belief in it both on behalf of women and men (because all are damaged or at least affected by the concept of gender, as Toad's excellent post points out).

Hopefully the fight will continue and we will avoid the backward step of acknowledging that gender has legitimacy, which is what T people want us all to do.

MyLife, yyy, all anyone can know is how it is to be themselves. For a man to say he feels he is a woman means he:

1. sees the class of people known as 'women' as some sort of amorphous blob, without any regard to the fact that women are all individuals, none of whom knows what it feels like to be any of the others,
2. has confused the appearance of women for the substance, and taking it one step further, quite often seems to have confused the look of women in fashion magazines or porn for the reality of female appearance, resulting in caricaturing of the feminine, not reflection of reality,
3. has no sense whatsoever of boundaries.

Fickle, if you personally want to refer to yourself as "cis", and not include anyone else in that, I very much doubt you'll find yourself silenced. Don't pretend that is in any way equivalent to what women here are concerned about.

Dear venus. The title of this AIBU is "AIBU to think Mumsnet should delete posts in which women are called cis?"

I believe myself to be a woman and therefore are in the group in the question. I don't think posts calling me "cis" should be deleted. The answer therefore is yes - clearly the OP IBU to think they can speak for all women and demand that all posts in which women are called cis are deleted. Don't pretend that that was not an acceptable answer to that question.

Dear Fickle. I think my comment to you was a reasonable response to your response to OP's AIBU. And you are in the group in question but clearly don't speak for all women either so if a post is deleted referring to women in general, other than you, which might be thought to include all women including those that reject the term, and you were angry about that, then I think some people might think YABU.

Not me, I'd rather have the freedom to say a trans woman is a man, thanks. I'm not in favour of censoring people's speech. But if you call me "cis" either personally or generally, I'll be telling you exactly what I think of that.

Then venus we shall have to agree to disagree.

If we agree we both cannot individually speak for all women and the current MN view is that they will deal with specific instances of deliberate misgendering then I think my point stands.

Therefore, if you say you do not wish to be called "cis", I say I do not mind being called "cis" and somebody says the phrase "ciswoman" they should not be deleted.

If they call you "cis" then they should be deleted.

If they call me "cis" then they should not be deleted.

If you call transwomen "men" then you should not necessarily be deleted.

If you call Laverne Cox "he" then you should be deleted.

Seem fair?

Well it's not my call what MNHQ do or what others think, but yes, I'd personally be fine with that. As I said, I'm not in favour of censorship.

Interested in why you're so invested in using the term "cis" though?

Fickle, you are in the same position as someone who may be black and has no objection to the N word.

You should acknowledge the fact that the word is objectionable and that the context in which it is used (a world where gender has relevance) is analogous to the context of the N word.

You should understand that the term 'transgender' itself is objectionable, because it implies that gender is something written in stone or something with relevance.

"If you call transwomen "men" then you should not necessarily be deleted.
If you call Laverne Cox "he" then you should be deleted."

But if transwomen are men than Laverne Cox is a man, since LC is a transwoman

Is reality subjective where you are from?

'I am a woman. Do not label me' cry hundreds of MNers. Is 'woman' not a label then? If not - if being a woman means being born physically female, then where is the space for trans women? To always be trans women?

Or can women not be a term for everyone who identifies as a woman, and in the context of discussing transgender issues, the term 'cisgender women' be used to denote people who do not consider themselves transsexual?

As Ricky Gervais (who I know is not usually popular on MN) often says, 'just because you're offended, it doesn't mean you are right'. I genuinely don't see why it's so mucj more offensive than being called a straight woman. The term 'straight' is used only to differentiate from other sexualities.

This thread smacks of the whole 'why should we pander to the PC brigade' school
of thought.

If someone calls you cisgender and you're not, perhaps just say 'actually I'm not cisgender'. And the world will move on.

"Woman" is a biological descriptor not a "label" one can choose at will.

Mostly cis is more offensive than "straight" or "heterosexual" because it's a load of bollocks that yet another group of men wish to choose to label women with.

once you use use RG as a reason for your argument you have lost.....or did the who disablist stuff he dd pass you by