to think Mumsnet should delete posts in which women are called cis

[violetsarentblue]

I (and I imagine quite a lot of women on here) are fed up with being referred to as cis. I find the term deeply insulting.
I'm a woman and prefer to be addressed as a 'woman', not a cis woman.

I noticed MN are quick to delete posts where transgender people are called 'he' instead of 'she', because that group of people find the term insulting and MN don't want to offend.

Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes.

Please - could we have the same depth of consideration for our wishes?

Thank you.

'Asking me about my gender is rude, it's all bloody trans are interested in, what's in my head is my business, if I'm gender intact so what, don't label me for it'.

OH sweet fucking Jesus

HERE WE GO AGAIN

please stop starting threads about other threads that very few people have read where a very small majority of the people have used word CIS

and if MN do this- they should also delete some of the openly transphobic views at the same time- sounds fair?

Of course they should, stopfuckingshouting.

And they do.

Can I respectfully suggest, if you don't give a shiny shit, could't care less, are sick of the subject...etc then you needn't comment?

You can suggest whatever you like.

But I think it's important for the sake of balance, that the people who really don't give a shit if some random on the internet wants to refer to them as 'cis', adds their voice to the mix.

Especially given that HQ have said they'll delete if someone doesn't want to be referred to in that way.

Brilliant posts by SmashingTurnips.

What I can't understand is, if we agree that gender is a set of (to put it bluntly) stereotypes created by society - why aren't we all fighting to remove these stereotypes?

Then people wouldn't need to swap between them, they could just be themselves.

Absolutely agree. Is someone cis black or cis white? Probably a bad example as race is not as defined as sex. Better would be a cis 30 year old as apposed to a trans 30 year old. Reality being edged out. The cis30 year old is some who is 30 years old. The trans30 year old is a fifty year old who has had botox or cosmetic surgery to get rid of wrinkles etc to look like they are 30. This doesn't change their chronological age.

Of course the trans 50 year old was one cis 30 year old, unlike someone of one sex who says they are the opposite sex. Maybe a cis cat and a trans cat (I could get a cat ears hairband).

I am a trans 21 year old now. I'll forgo the surgery though. Or a cis diabetic and a trans diabetic. It would be a fine kettle of fish if trans diabetics said dialysis was transdiabeticphobic.

Is cis, as opposed to trans, used to denote real in this non chemistry use? I don't understand why there is an attempt to say that women exist in two forms.

I personally only see women and men who say they are women in that cis and trans stuff. Even Jenner is still writing Bruce on his application forms. It wouldn't change what sex Jenner is even if he didn't. That is my own view.

It's a 'rose by any other name, would smell as sweet'. The names of things do not affect what they really are. Why pretend?

"and if MN do this- they should also delete some of the openly transphobic views at the same time- sounds fair?"

of course they should. but 2 wrongs don't make a right, CIS is offensive to many people on here and should be stopped.

If you've even read that far is mess of an analogy, 'the trans 30 year old was once really 30 years old'.

special - I don't in everyday life but if I'm discussing the topic and it's relevant to distinguish I find it easier than non-trans or any other description. It just doesn't bother me either way, feminism and trans activism both have much bigger battles to fight than this one.

When I hear women agreeing that they are cis, I hear them saying "I have a ladybrain".

It pains my soul.

I hope you keep that cis privilege of yours well and truly checked vashta.

A helpful thing to do I find is replace "gender" with "sex role" (in feminism they are the same thing). As in "cissexrole" and "sex role privilege" - plain speaking is our friend here as it gets to the root of what we are actually signing up to.

No need to worry about me Turnips I don't think there are 'ladybrains' and don't know many trans people who do either. I don't really understand why some of my friends feel it's so important to change their name and sometimes their bodies, I'm not a scientist and don't really know what's going on. But I don't think they're lying about it, and I've seen how transition helps them.
If it's relevant to the conversation I don't mind using the cis terminology, I don't use it for anyone who doesn't like it, but it makes conversations on the topic more easy to understand for me. I don't think it's the most important issue here.

Perhaps we should not steal cis and trans (same side/opposing side) from latin and chemistry

many trans people believe their birth identified sex (biology/chromosomes/genitals) matters less than gender (chosen or felt identity/societal role)
many women believe their birth identified sex (biology/chromosomes/genitals) is the material reality that has caused them to be socialised into a gender (identity/social role) whether they identify with it or not

to me two positions are more akin to enantiomers than any other form of isomerism - e.g. mirror image symmetry and therefore not able to be superimposed on each other

Which I think sums up the argument really nicely, and why we have so many threads on it

This probably doesn't help things much but makes me feel better that the chemistry analogies used are really accurate. So I wont accept cis, but you can call me an enantiomorph.....

WL, you're being disingenuous.

You've come on the last couple of threads that are trans related telling posters how much you don't care and are sick of them.

Just don't click.

It's quite simple.

I agree. I am a woman, not a cis woman.

stop well said.

The TERFing that goes on at MN really depresses me.

It's so sad that a group of people who are the first to decry men who try to grimly cling onto their male privilege, cannot see or admit that they are doing the exact same thing to trans individuals.

If you want to fight gender constructs, then do so, perhaps by making the trans community an ALLY. If you identify as genderqueer, then just bloody well say so. Don't start banging on about how being identified as "cis" hurts your widdle feelings.

"I'm just a woman, full stop!"
OK, so if you were talking about race issues with group of women of different races, and someone referred to you as "a [white/Asian/black/mixed race] woman", would you sit there shouting "I'm just a woman, no other labels needed!" Or would you act like a bloody grown-up and realise that the "label" was relevant in the context of the discussion?

I think it may be time for me to leave this thread. I think we established fairly early on that some people find the term useful, some don't. We should all be respectful to each other and avoid using words if they might be perceived as an insult. That's the MNHQ stance, it's perfectly sensible and I don't see why we can't just leave it there

I agree OP. Calling someone a name that they have asked not to be called is abuse.

what is TERFing ?

TERF stands for trans exclusionary rad feminist.

It is also frequently used as an insult.

TERFs appear to be anyone who doesn't think trans women, are women.

Despite the fact that TERFs support the idea that trans women should live their lives with the same opportunities to thrive as everyone else, should be called 'she' or 'her' if they wish, think they should free to wear what they want without unwanted attention or abuse, form relationships with whoever they want and generally, you know, live.

They're still TERFs, though.

surely this differentiation can be useful in some contexts and thats that? Certainly doesnt offend me just seems to over state gender. But in a conversation about trans gender or to explain the difference or between trans gender people I guess its just another descriptive device?
Not sure why all the furore though... some can use it others not....

pocket
What an odd question. I wouldn't need to say what colour I was because it would be self evident. And if you asked my sexual preference I would tell you to mind your own fucking business. Pun intended.

Born woman is one more letter, why not use that if no agenda?

I don't have 'widdle feelings', pocketsaviour . What makes you think I do?

YANBU. MN seems bent on catering to a minority whilst disenfranchising the majority.

They are not as bad as some media sites.

Oops, sorry, didn't have the blinkers on. Used 'him' for the person who insisted they be identified on their application form as Bruce Jenner. Well, also because the person on that video comes across to me as a bloke. I do know they are not a bloke now. (as we have to say). Even if they won the mens olympic decathlon and are currently enrolling themselves in a golf club as a man. So they even 'identify' themselves as a man on their form. But I have to say they are a her and she.

Do you know it is like North Korea? You can't deviate from the party line and everyone has to be indoctrinated. There is a whole mythology around the previous leader and everyone has to kow tow to this myth. Doesn't change the fact it is a myth.

Thankfully it would just be a deletion online, and not in real life! Well, at the moment....