to feel my sympathy with the French government evaporate?

[Tiivola]

So the French government wants to suspend civil liberties for three months, effectively turning the country into a police state?

And if Francois "this is war" Hollande invokes article 5 of the Nato treaty, the UK could be forced to join in military action in Syria?!

AIBU to think that while I have the greatest possible sympathy with the French people, the French government can go fuck themselves...?

Or ask me about anything Ilam related for that matter do pm me

www.jeraldinephneah.me/2015/11/singaporean-muslim-response-to-the-paris-terror-attacks-by-isis.html

Damnit, that was to chilly, what do you make of that?

Great link, JustanotherLurker

I second that 7days

PlymouthMaid1 Mon 16-Nov-15 19:48:10
Chilly - I don't want to blame all Muslims for what is going on but I would dearly love to see peace loving Muslims speaking out in public or marching on the streets to show their contempt for Isis. They all seem so quiet.

I have seen this on several threads so it seems like muslim communities are getting this wrong. How it could be shown better? Is it that the actions are wrong (statements/demonstrations are mentioned in this thread both of which have happened) or that they aren't well enough publicised? Or not frequent enough? Or is it something else people feel is missing?

ID cards would do zip. French police stopped one of the recent attackers and demanded his ID, which he showed them.

I for one will not be handing over management of my identity to any government - I would sooner go to jail than participate in a bogus scheme with zero benefit.

Whilst ID cards do have benefits in a wider scenario I agree it won't stop determined individuals, just the same as those thinking making the already practice of reading everybodies emails legal hasn't stopped the recent attack.

France recently introduced increased snooping powers after the last attack

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/05/france-passes-new-surveillance-law-in-wake-of-charlie-hebdo-attack

interesting link thanks Just another, have just tried to wade through the atlantic link on the other thread which is also very interesting.

justanother - brilliant link. Exactly.
I would love to see some highly visible leadership from within the Muslim community - a high-profile, well-respected voice, a la Pope Francis for the Catholic Church or Justin Welby for the C of E. Someone who would speak for the (I presume) sane non-violent peace-loving Muslim majority.

What "benefits" do ID cards have?

Sorry wason, I'm going to contradict myself by thinking solely occupational database administrator mindset, normalised data is better and disparate systems are only good as the api's available, plus they are generally used across Europe with no obvious flaws with regards to data loss etc.

The contradiction is that I am fully against the snoopers charter and will actively avoid gmail,Facebook et al and use tor on a regular basis.

/my handwringing situation

Many of the European ID card systems work without a single (normalised or otherwise in these post-relational times) database, in fact the German Constitution forbids it (hmmm). A single ID database is a single point of failure and or hacking.

The French system is hardly one to envy www.france24.com/en/20100224-id-cards-bureaucratic-maze

They work ok in other countries isn't persuading me we need them; it's a weak argument at best.

They are a weak-minded response to a problem that doesn't exist.

As a response to terrorists they are worthless.

What is the pro side to id cards, then? I am interested in all reasons from preventing benefit fraud to er... Well I dunno. Woefully underinformed about all this

They don't want people questioning past war crimes... this is all a distraction from that (and wealth creator).

The Madrid bombers all had ID cards, and, had the UK introduced them before 2005, the 7/7 bombers would have had them too.

France needs to react and whatever it takes must be done. Terrorism is growing at an alarming rate and pussy footing around, talking about civil liberties and generally acting as if we are willing to be run over will not do now as it would never have done in the Second World War. Remember, France was an occupied country then and the agony of seeing the enemy marching through your beloved homeland is long remembered. Terrorism, seen on the streets of Paris is just such an invasion. The President is right. It IS war.

Naw, America declared war after 9/11 and the UN gave us all a roasting for it. We did it anyway, and the only reason we had allies is because they can't afford to lose us as trade partners. I'm not sure France has that level of sway.

That said, when we first went to war, France refused to get involved. Hence us calling everything French "Freedom" instead and all the jokes that ensued.. because.. freedom kissing. Now they're dealing with the same problem. Not saying this is cause or effect, but if UK doesn't help, then they might end up dealing with a bigger mess later on because France threw gasoline on a fire. History repeats itself.

Unfortunately, one country is doing something stupid and it might be in your best interest to effectively do something you disagree with, than to do something half assed and have a bigger problem later.

It's like watching a giant game of chess - but we have no control over the pieces or the moves, and the rules are changed all the time without our knowledge.

What I don't understand is how the young people being radicalised don't know that ISIS are killing more of their Muslim 'brothers' than anyone else. Or if they do, are they just ignoring it? Why?? Are they being shown the facts in mosques and at home?

Speaking of normanilised data does not equate to some singular database, we have moved on since the 70's, I have also not tried to state it would prevent terrorism.

Our governmental inter connectivity and api's are miles behind that in Europe, whilst I don't trust the government and capita to produce a system, the single point of failure would be one of the first issues of the technical meeting.

But they're not "proper" Muslims, so the propaganda goes.

I imagine Germany's reluctance to not have a database isn't just (or even, at all?) to do with exposing past war criminals. I suspect they're rather sensitive to the dangers of what governments can do with databases.

Justanother - I haven't seen a single benefit listed yet - agreed you didn't say that ID cards would stop terrorists, but you did claim they would have benefits - what are they?

Yes, wasn't it a database that allowed the Nazis to round up the Jews in Germany? They would be erm, summoned for deportation?

Swedish - Your interpretation of Germany's reasoning is the one I've always imagined was the true reason.