to feel my sympathy with the French government evaporate?

[Tiivola]

So the French government wants to suspend civil liberties for three months, effectively turning the country into a police state?

And if Francois "this is war" Hollande invokes article 5 of the Nato treaty, the UK could be forced to join in military action in Syria?!

AIBU to think that while I have the greatest possible sympathy with the French people, the French government can go fuck themselves...?

where is personal responsibility

well this is the interesting part.

I think family must be made to take responsibility.

The mum of these boys said one had been radicalized - did she inform the authorities?

A man at the mosque in Chartres said he didn't like the new young ones it changed the atmosphere - but he preferred not to get involved.

supermanpants you are completely right, and I do wish you didn't feel the need to backpedal and apologise. Like you, I am sorry that all Muslims are being tarred with the same brush; at the same time, I increasingly resent the fact that so few Muslims are willing to speak out against Isil and instead seem focused on feeling sorry for themselves.

Is that true Chipstick? I can think of loads of terrorist atrocities that weren't carried out in the name of Islam.

Chilly - I don't want to blame all Muslims for what is going on but I would dearly love to see peace loving Muslims speaking out in public or marching on the streets to show their contempt for Isis. They all seem so quiet.

How about the families trying to stop radicalisation . It's not just the governments responsibility .

most terrorists are Muslim that's a fact

Is it a fact?

Chilly, it's not "the government's" job to stop "radicalism" and brainwashing. It is the job of the Muslim community

Actually, its all.our jobs. If it wasn't so easy for those doing the radicalising to point to examples of where "we" are being so "bad" to "them" , the radicalising would be much harder.

There has been a huge increase in attacks on Muslims since the Paris attack - again that plays really well into the "them" and "us" rhetoric. If all Muslims are being abused online, and in our streets, how many of them may start to think that maybe ISIS have a point, and that we are the enemy? Even on Mumsnet there's some not too subtle anti-muslim/anti-immigrant posts - othering people is a great way to radicalise them.

Thymeout the goat-herders remark was me.
I know that Isis as an organisation has a rather suspiciously large amount of resources at their disposal, I was referring specifically to the profile of the average Isis fighter as very well described here:
www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-interviewing-isis-prisoners/

I actually completely disagree that ordinary people should be made to apologise for terrorist atrocities. These terrorists have got nothing to do with the average Muslim just living their lives in a peaceful way, why should they have to say anything? It singles them out in a way that makes me uncomfortable.

Chipstick
According to statistics from Europol, less than two per cent of all recorded acts of terror were perpetrated with religious motivations, with an even smaller number being committed by Muslim extremists.
Estimates suggest only around two per cent of all terrorist attacks were committed by Islamic groups or individuals.
For example, out of the 152 terrorist acts in the EU in 2013, only two were religiously motivated. In 2011, none of the 174 attacks were ‘inspired’ by religious organisations.

[I have already linked to the Europol statistics upthread if you wish to check original source]

Read more: metro.co.uk/2015/01/15/the-number-of-terrorists-who-are-actually-religiously-motivated-will-surprise-you-5023616/#ixzz3rgaU5hKS

supermanspants I'm also do not wish to start a bunfight. Apologies.
Many mosques and imams do teach peace are against isis and do speak out. I can't say I'm surprised many islamic religious leaders have spoken out because your damned if you do and your damned if you don't and probably want the victims of isis to grieve in peace. Yep some imams do sympathise with isis most definitely don't and organisations like the one that appears on BBC breakfast this morning who are solely again't extremism try so hard to stop it. Yes families do try and educated communitit's are against it, but I as a muslim as person am dumbfounded that a strange bloke in syria on the internet could persuade anyone to be a terrorist. That's why I think the government should get involved and investigate why young lads are turning that way. Why if there mam and dad are normal and they went to a good mosque, why suddenly jump on a plane to Syria? This is why I think governmentshe should get involved. However I do think Hollande wishing to change the constitution as a dangerous move. Because I feel it opens the flood gates for all sorts of nasties. I do think isis should be wiped out and stopped but I think there's work to be done at home as well as in syria

There is no need to be perdantic, I clearly meant all atrocities carried out in the name of Islam. Tunisia. 911, Charlie Hebdo, July 7th . All Muslim terrorists no?

Again: where are the Muslims who could be speaking out against radicalisation? There are plenty of left-wing voices speaking out about anti-Muslim rhetoric. But where are the countervailing arguments from within Islam against radical Muslims? Where are the Muslim voices trying to correct the increasingly prevalent and poisonous popular view of their religion? And not just speech, but also some kind of tangible action (a public Muslim demonstration against terrorist acts in the name of Islam, perhaps?), would be very welcome.

Blimey, pedantic to query a statement of fact that couldn't be more wrong?

And yes I agree more muslim leaders should speak out.

And nortonhouse I speak out against terrorism and extremism I'm not the only one .
Isis are nutters and all there running around with black flags is offensive and using sections of the quran to manipulate others. They are evil.

I also read that the journalist jane Moore said a public demo carried out by Muslims against atrocity s would be welcome. Someone online said that it would never happen because first and foremost Muslim allegiance is to Allah, and not the host nation or anyone else. Of course I don't know if that's true.

Many Muslim leaders have spoken out...

Have a Google of eg "Muslim leaders condemn Paris"

There is no need to be perdantic, I clearly meant all atrocities carried out in the name of Islam. Tunisia. 911, Charlie Hebdo, July 7th . All Muslim terrorists no?

well obviously But very few attacks out of the total are carried out "in the name of Islam"

Well all I know is that my daughter was scared to catch the train this morning. What the hell is happening.?

I'd love to hear more prominent Muslims speaking out against fundamentalist Islam. Of course most Muslims aren't fundamentalist and don't believe what Al Qaeda, Daesh, Boko Haram, etc believe, but it would be really, really great to hear large numbers of them speaking up - loudly and unequivocally - to denounce this bastardised version of their religion. It was great to see the 'Not in My Name' video on YouTube, but how many Muslims were speaking out? About eight, I think. Really? Is that all???

And yes, if I was a prisoner of daesh I'd be praying that someone would start bombing them so that I'd have a chance at escaping. Particularly if I'd been married off to one of their disgusting fighters and was being raped daily. I'd be praying for bombs!

these people that have joined isis are not Muslims as in us people of the Muslim community do not accept them

So we keep being told - but still poll after poll suggests a very significant number of muslims are indeed in favour of extremists killing. Not all, obviously, or even a majority, but still far too many

And now it's the government's job to root out extremists, so that once again parts of the community can avoid the responsibility? I really don't think so ...

I can understand why normal people just want to get on with their lives, but the problem with expecting the government to deal with the problem is that it is precisely the government that these alienated/radicalising young people view as the oppressor/enemy of Islam. So the government "dealing with it" is likely to be ineffective or make it worse. It seems to me that, by the very nature of the problem, the only people who have a hope of countering it are Muslims themselves.

muslims are the biggest victims of these lunatics.

Is there perhaps a climate of fear among ordinary decent Muslims where they dare not speak up? Thinking of NI 30 years ago when the Troubles were at a height - 'whatever you say, say nothing'. Has it already come to this in British Muslim communities?

Another point, when innocent civilians, children to the elderly, are killed going about their everyday lives, of course it is going to cause huge anger and a desire to destroy the enemy. It's here on this thread, the streets of Paris and also right across the MENA. The French flags on FB was an example of solidarity in the face of horror. People were giving out that 'we' excluded the rest of the world in that. Maybe we did but there is a type of (usually young male hothead) person who has their own more 'activist' way of showing solidarity for 'their own'

kesstrel spot on!

Sigh I can't keep reiterating the same thing.
I've got to sort my washing out but if anyone would like to ask me questions about islam on any particular stance or would like to ask anything regarding a decent islamic scholar please pm me.