To wonder how all the people wearing the French flag on FB feel now they've bombed Syria?

[TheHouseOnTheLane]

So..."everyone" popped a French flag on their FB profile in sympathy with Paris.

Now France has shot over there and dropped 20 bombs on ISIS HQ and training centre.

So...people are happily condoning war really.

Why not all change profile pics to a peace sign?

I know ISIS are bad...but as we all say, violence solves nothing. Nothing.

Penicillin, sally? Antivirals?

This is one of the saddest threads I have read.
We are still swallowing all the same type of shite we were told before we screwed over Afghanistan and Iraq. Isis are a creation of the west to give us a reason to invade. We won't "wipe them out". Our governments need them for their war-mongering, materialistic killing agenda.

Isis are a creation of the west

It makes sense in a way; artificially establish a perfect bad guy state, who you can use to generate hostile immigration towards Europe, placing enormous stress on the infrastructure and principles of the Union. You could infiltrate terrorists to discredit Angela Merkel and collapse German dominance of the EU. You could create the impetus for greater security and the beginnings of a police state, or trigger a war for profit.

I'm sure that, particularly among our present political leaders in particular, there are many who wish you could pull off a trick like that. But the reality of pulling it off would be so complex, require the complete and total support from so many independent actors, has so many potential failure points and opportunities to be leaked or accidentally revealed that the idea is absurd.

I have no doubt that many of our overt and covert overlords will try and capitalise on the present situation, but remember; the oligarchs and their puppets broke the economy when every indication was that there was nothing structurally wrong outside of their own greed. Expecting them to be competent and far sighted enough to create the conspiracy described is wishful thinking. Nobody, no individual, institution or shadowy cabal, is competent enough to manipulate the world to this degree. If they were, there are far more profits to be made from peace than warfare and this world would probably be a better place.

mic.com/articles/91071/how-the-british-screwed-up-the-middle-east-in-10-classic-cartoons#.kOk8WfnQH

Number 6 just about sums up karma on us.....

We need to understand in the west that we don't understand and should stop meddling

This goes much further back than Blair and Iraq

Mephistopheles Your response offered too much considered argument. The correct response to the hand-wringing apologetic "Isis are a creation of the west" is... "my son detonated his suicide vest because he was stressed".

I'm perplexed as to why on a site such as this we have a collective knicker twist for rape-apologists, everydaysexism, gender-neutral toys, blah blah, ad nauseum - but it seems we can't call out a bunch of sadistic bastards who'd quite happily put each and every single person using this site "in their place".

All beyond my level of comprehension I'm afraid.

Oh and it really pisses me off all this "British empire"/"reap what you sow" bollocks.

I am prepared to eat my hat (basted with shining turd) when the Maoris make catching a tube feel risky.

I donated, more important than people pissing about with profile pics and getting load of likes on fb

I didn't realise there was somewhere we could donate to buy more explosives for the French to drop? I'd be on there like a shot if there was!!

I'd like to think I'd done my part in ridding the world of these intolerant, murdering bigots....

Why does it piss you off that we meddled with these countries for our own gain without any thought to the consequences? We didn't take into account that these people would fight each other and continue to fight each other but then include the west? It's not bollocks its reality

God I know.
Isis are a fascist organisation. They are medieval.
And while many Muslims will have opinions on britain's meddling in the Midfke east, we all recognise that Isis is something else.

All this 'reap what you sow' bollocks...

Especially when you see the memorials to the folk in the Paris who were murdered.

We need to understand in the west that we don't understand and should stop meddling

^ this
Of course ISIS need to be got rid of, no one could argue with that, but where is the political debate that looks at the wider picture and talks about the mistakes we have made?

So, 'the west' have fabricated ISIS to give us a reason to invade? Seriously? Have you been watching too many Bond films? I don't think anyone really disputes that we had a vested interest in the Gulf, but in Syria? why the f* would we want to invade Syria?

We deserves it, because of our meddling eh?
See that argument would be fine and dandy if government was being targeted, seeing as it's innocent civilians though, the theory that anything we have done has caused this is ridiculous and apologist.

I think sometimes you have to look at these things pragmatically, because the whole moral issue of working out who's to blame is too inflammatory.

So if you take Iraq - regardless of whether you thought getting rid of Saddam Hussein was the morally right thing to do, or whether you thought it was immoral because of the thousands of innocent people left dead - the truth is it did have a longterm impact. You can't intervene in a volatile region like the Middle East without having a significant impact. However nasty a dictator is, the one advantage they possess is that they do keep a lid on dissent - once that dictator is gone, you make it possible for all sorts of groups to spring up and try to seize power.

The question now is what to do in Syria - essentially you've got a very complicated set of alliances where, if you wade in in support of one group, you're going to antagonise a whole bunch of other people you'd rather keep on side. We all want to see the back of ISIS - the question is, is there a way of doing that effectively without having other major unwanted repercussions? If we bomb ISIS targets, what happens then? Do other groups spring up to take their place? Do we piss off various groups we're currently allied to? Will we provoke more extreme groups to mount terror attacks on European targets? Equally, what happens if we don't bomb ISIS - will the consequences be even worse? Could they end up taking control in Syria and elsewhere in the region?

I am glad I am not the person tasked with sorting all this out. But I don't think there is an easy answer.

ISIS and groups like them are beyond reason and beyond despicable. No doubt they will carry on killing without reason or thought. They have to be disempowered and got rid of.

But the instability in the whole region which has lead to their insurgence is in part due to Western involvement.

I think it is possible to acknowledge this and condemn the terror attacks in Paris.

The innocent deaths during the Iraq invasion we did not have to think about (though granted we were anonymously dropping bombs from the sky and not gunning people down at point blank range). The innocent deaths that took place last Friday are naturally much closer to home.

All these deaths, IMO, are part of the same narrative (and nothing to do with anybody "deserving it"). When are we going to change the story?

Someone upthread posted this letter to The Telegraph

SIR – The Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford (Meco) utterly condemns the loss of innocent life in Paris. The perpetrators have besmirched the good name of Islam. Not only is their fanaticism completely at odds with the teachings of the Holy Koran, but they seek to heighten tensions between Muslims and those of other faiths.
For this reason, British Muslims must combat the poisonous ideology of Isil. It is essential that its absurd theological propaganda, championing a medieval concept of violent jihad, is exposed as totally non-Koranic.
While the slaughter in Paris should be denounced unreservedly, France and other ex-colonial Western nations must be held accountable for their foreign policy in the Middle East. In recent times, the US, Britain and France have all tried to reinforce Western imperialism – first by their invasion and occupation of Iraq, then by their illegitimate government change in Libya, and now by their interference in the Syrian civil war. Such actions have alienated Muslims and accelerated the emergence of Isil.
The only way out of this cycle of murder and mayhem in the Middle East and Europe is a two-fold strategy. First, Muslims must put their house in order by tackling extremism while establishing true political democracy. Secondly, Western powers must forgo their historic control of the riches and resources of the Islamic world and deal with Muslims as respected partners.

I agree with a lot of this. The only question I have is how do you stand by and "not get involved" when somebody like Assad is murdering his own people?

There is no point in conflating Daesh with the civil war in Syria. Even if the Syrian government was replaced with a democracy overnight and peace returned, the terrorist attacks in the West would continue. They have a declared aim to bring their perverted ideology to the world, and they won't stop trying until they are eradicated.

"I'm perplexed as to why on a site such as this we have a collective knicker twist for rape-apologists, everydaysexism, gender-neutral toys, blah blah, ad nauseum - but it seems we can't call out a bunch of sadistic bastards who'd quite happily put each and every single person using this site "in their place"."

This.

but it seems we can't call out a bunch of sadistic bastards who'd quite happily put each and every single person using this site "in their place".

I don't think anyone agrees with ISIS, or thinks we shouldnt " call them out". There is a real question over whether bombing (besides, are we really going to bomb France and Belgium?) will help or inflame the situation though... We can destroy current ISIS members all we like, but what is important (possibly more so) is to understand why ISIS exists and has support (and its not because Muslims) or more ISIS terrorists will simply sprout up.

I don't think Daesh are doing this because of what the West have apparently done (funny how nobody mentions the Saudis or Iranians involvement in destablising the Middle East). I think they are doing this because they are puritanical religious absolutists who genuinely want a medieval caliphate. I don't think that killing all Jews and giving them Israel or removing foreign armies from the Middle East will suddenly make them all cuddly and change their ways. There is no solution that will please people who think that blaming ourselves in the West or giving succour to ISIS is the answer.

Here is a good article about what ISIS really want - www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

I'm perplexed as to why on a site such as this we have a collective knicker twist for rape-apologists, everydaysexism, gender-neutral toys, blah blah, ad nauseum - but it seems we can't call out a bunch of sadistic bastards who'd quite happily put each and every single person using this site "in their place"."

Exactly.

And someone who calls the murder of young people at a concert hall karma just because they are 'Western' is as thick and racist as those who say all Muslims are terrorists. Absolutely shocking.

You could get all the leaders of Isis, if that's the right term, get them in a room and ask them all they want to achieve, give it to them, and they still wouldn't be happy. All they want to do is kill. The savage, barbaric, murderous bastards delight in it. They'd take us back to the stone age if they could.

yellowbird11 is exactly right. Haven't Isis said as much - that they won't be happy until there is sharia law for everyone and their flag is flying over Europe and the rest of the world?

They would then just turn on each other if they managed world domination.

I do agree though that trying to work on the ground and deal with how these kids are being radicalised would be a starting point. There are an awful lot of extreme people in our jails currently radicalising other inmates. I know the Government is concerned about it but doesn't have much information on what the numbers really are. It's all well and good to arrest these people but you are then dumping them into a melting pot of other men who are disenfranchised, angry and lost and suddenly you have more jihadis just waiting to get out and get some revenge in the name of religion.

Can I ask you all to read this?
It's by a French man who was actually a hostage of Islamic State. It's the most reasoned, intelligent argument I've read as to why bombing IS is not the way to go.
He doesn't spare Saudi and Iran in his analysis either.
He also reminds us that there are currently half a million civilians in Raqqa.

While the slaughter in Paris should be denounced unreservedly, France and other ex-colonial Western nations must be held accountable for their foreign policy in the Middle East. In recent times, the US, Britain and France have all tried to reinforce Western imperialism – first by their invasion and occupation of Iraq, then by their illegitimate government change in Libya, and now by their interference in the Syrian civil war. Such actions have alienated Muslims and accelerated the emergence of Isil

I find this quite worrying actually ^^

Its obvious, Amercia alone could go into Syria and crush Isis - as well as Russia, UK, France, etc etc etc.

The reason they have not done this is because of the past history, Obama said The Iraqui army needs to be shored up, the Kurds etc.

The big problem is Assad not only because of his murder of his own people, but because of his religion.

Its obvious, Amercia alone could go into Syria and crush Isis - as well as Russia, UK, France, etc etc etc.
Wrong. You are making the same mistake as others. Daesh are incidental to the Syrian civil war. They didn't start up in Syria and would continue to exist if Syria was wiped off the planet. They and their affiliates are all over the Middle East, particularly in Iraq, and spreading in Africa as well.

ISIS are repugnant. Bombing them back to the stone age is fine with me.