to not send my girls on this school trip because of my beliefs

[JustGiveMeTwoMinutes]

The trip is to a mosque and the girls (year 3 and 4) have to cover their heads with a scarf, the boys don't have to.

Just to be clear about where I am coming from, this is about a specific practice which I believe is discriminatory and therefore disagree with. I would not choose myself to enter a building that I could only enter if I wore particular clothes but where that requirement was limited to one gender or one group defined by arbitrary characteristics. I would be happy to cover my head as a sign of respect/tradition if everyone entering the building was required to do so.

They can make their own decision on this when they are adults.

Am I being ridiculous and petty or is it reasonable to stand up for my view that just because a custom is part of a religion that does not excuse it being discriminatory?

cailin I'm amazed at how unwilling people are to go slightly out of their way in order to respect someone else's beliefs.
I'm pretty sure at 7/8 years old I would have worried about having to do something when boys don't have to I remember going to a Hindu temple when I was in year 5, and being over the moon that I got to spend half an hour with the women from the temple and the other girls in my class, having beautiful bindis stuck on my head, and having my face decorated with colourful paint designs. Should I have been worried that I had to do it when the boys didn't? At 9 years old, I think not.

"Would everyone here be ok with a school trip where the black children had to wear armbands because they were black?"

Nope, but many people accept that boys aren't allowed to wear skirts to school, which is a better comparison.

In my experience children love dressing up and that is how it will feel to the girls - dressing up!

As others have said, if they are prepubescent girls then they don't need to cover their hair anyway so its a non-issue. DH is from a majority muslim country and young girls don't cover their hair.

Other religions require head coverings Gurdwara's require everyone to cover their head, synagogues - men only and the Vatican expressly forbids hats being worn at all.

So if it was the belief of a church that black children had to wear particular clothes and be separated from white children, you'd be ok with going slightly out of your way to respect that belief, would you Sparkly?

Gwenhwyfar - I'm not ok with separate uniforms for boys and girls either. Either it's a uniform for everyone or a uniform for no one.

except it's not dressing up is it.

it's covering up a childs hair because of grown mens belief it's sexual.

on a child

This thread is just getting silly now.

cailin - I think it's very ironic you're over on another thread saying how hard it is to be Irish in the UK because of prejudice, meanwhile you're on here, happily stirring anti-Muslim sentiment.

Tbh the rising hostility towards Muslims and especially covered women in the UK is far more of a concern than assumptions about a very complex issue (there are actually a lot of restrictions in the male dress code in Islam that do not apply to women, and a lot of different interpretations and motivations).

It can actually be illuminating to experience just how much unwarranted prejudice and discrimination covered women face (without being asked their reasons) - a far bigger and more consistent problem I would say than misogyny within the community, and an important issue to tackle. I would be very wary of establishing hostile and distant attitudes through telling them to accept a very stereotypical view of a whole community and avoiding them as a result.

Although Chaz's post is entirely accurate.

YANBU. These school visits are nothing more than indoctrination sessions. No way would I let my children go. I hope that you hold firm.

This is the biggest pile of bullshit I've ever heard! Time to step away from the Britain First Facebook page dear!

Would you also not visit a Muslim country or go to Ireland who are anti abortion or go to the US as they have the death penalty?

Preventing children from learning about difference will only encourage prejudice in my opinion.

YANBU - at all! Religion aside, I wouldn't allow my DD into any organisation that was so blatantly sexist. The religious aspect is a red herring in some ways - and shouldn't be used as an excuse for something that is inexcusable in the rest of society (ie we don't live in a society that demands women cover their heads).

'cailin - I think it's very ironic you're over on another thread saying how hard it is to be Irish in the UK because of prejudice, meanwhile you're on here, happily stirring anti-Muslim sentiment.'

I was wondering how long that would take Pontipines. Do you think that my traditions should be accepted in the UK without question, in that case, even if they're racist or misogynistic?

If you are going to come on a thread and say that in faith schools all other faiths are given more time and attention than Christianity you betcha I'm going to patronise you green. Cos it's bollocks.

*except it's not dressing up is it.

it's covering up a childs hair because of grown mens belief it's sexual.

on a child*
I know that but what will be the consequences for these particular children on this school trip? They will go home and forget all about it.

Preventing children from learning about difference will only encourage prejudice in my opinion.

I agree. However, why should the female children be treated as second class citizens, whilst the male children can visit without the need to cover up? The girls could learn just as well without the head coverings!

cailin why do you keep bringing up race? No one else is talking about black children being segregated from white children except you.

There is a difference between the genders. I can't get my head around why people get their knickers in a twist about that...so I'm not even going to try.

She's not preventing her child though. she would be perfectly happy as would I, for her chikd to visit and meet the people etc

she just doesn't want to partake in a child having to cover their hair on the basis of being a girl.

other than that the children are free to see and learn about anything else.

I think you should learn a bit more about Islam, before dismissing it's traditions.

Then I think you should learn a bit more about the crap Muslim women have to put up with because of attitudes like yours.

I've worn hijab for over 10 years, I've never had any problems with Muslims men, but the abuse and nastiness from some non-Muslims has been horrendous.

There is a difference between the genders. I can't get my head around why people get their knickers in a twist about that...so I'm not even going to try.

Fucking hell.

"Men don't 'have' to do anything in church. If they wish to keep their hats on they can."

I don't agree with that. The only time I saw a man with a hat on in a church, he was told to remove it. I'm not sure if he would have been thrown out if he had refused, but it is a rule in many churches, not just a custom.

'cailin why do you keep bringing up race? No one else is talking about black children being segregated from white children except you.'

I'm bringing it up as a comparison because for some reason people seem to see racism more easily than they see sexism.

'There is a difference between the genders. I can't get my head around why people get their knickers in a twist about that...so I'm not even going to try.'

Even if there is a difference between genders I don't see how that justifies asking one of them to cover up and not the other. How do 'differences' justify that?

This thread has it all. Racism, sexism and religion. And a lot of very strange views.

'Hell would have to freeze over before I or my daughter covered our heads in the name of some religion.'

This ^

The same people who would (rightly) be railing against sexual or racial discrimination seem to stumble when it comes to religion. It would be disrespectful to go on the visit and go against the instructions given on dress. It is not disrespectful to refuse to visit as you disagree with the instructions and the reasons behind them.