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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to not send my girls on this school trip because of my beliefs

942 replies

JustGiveMeTwoMinutes · 13/11/2015 16:39

The trip is to a mosque and the girls (year 3 and 4) have to cover their heads with a scarf, the boys don't have to.

Just to be clear about where I am coming from, this is about a specific practice which I believe is discriminatory and therefore disagree with. I would not choose myself to enter a building that I could only enter if I wore particular clothes but where that requirement was limited to one gender or one group defined by arbitrary characteristics. I would be happy to cover my head as a sign of respect/tradition if everyone entering the building was required to do so.

They can make their own decision on this when they are adults.

Am I being ridiculous and petty or is it reasonable to stand up for my view that just because a custom is part of a religion that does not excuse it being discriminatory?

OP posts:
travellinglighter · 13/11/2015 17:36

Cleaty

We shouldn’t tolerate misogynistic practices but you can’t even tolerate such a small compromise for educational purposes?? It’s wrong, to differentiate, I know it’s wrong and I would use the fact that women have to cover up and men don’t on this trip to highlight it to my little ones.

OfaFrenchmind2 · 13/11/2015 17:37

She can show respect without covering her head!! However, they show her disrespect by asking her to hide part of her head away, as if she was dirtier or more impure.

Boys are not asked the same thing, they can come as they are and they are golden. Girls have to cede and hide part of their identity. Do you not see a problem here? Are you so inured to saying yes without thinking?

cailindana · 13/11/2015 17:37

John - I would also complain about that because again it separates boys and girls purely on gender. The rules around many synagogues are just as restrictive and misogynistic as in mosques actually.

SparklyTinselTits · 13/11/2015 17:38

cailin what a ridiculous statement to make Hmm
How is a girl covering her head because it's a traditional part of a religion the same thing as blatant racism?
Do some googling, or speak to some Muslim women...I think you will be surprised to find out that wearing a hijab/niqab/burqa is not forced upon them (not in this country anyway), many choose to wear it, the same way that many Muslim women choose not to wear it. Black people do not choose to be black Hmm

Lostcat2 · 13/11/2015 17:38

With you op. Sod that. Me and my dds cover up for no one. No one had the right to tell us how we are expected to dress and certainly not any man, or any religious nonsense.

All religions are controlling and mysogynistic and quite frankly I don't see we learn anything from books written by men for men thousands of years sgo.

The bigots are the people requiring women to dress in a certain way not the women who say actually no not me and not my dds.

cailindana · 13/11/2015 17:38

'don't we live in a society where both the accepted rules of dress, and the actual rules of dress are different for men and women?'

Yes, and I don't see how further accepting a discriminatory practice is helpful.

IrisVillarca · 13/11/2015 17:39

No green, it's not. I have worked in both Catholic and C of E schools and in none of them was more time given to learning about other religions at the expense of the core religion to the school.
RE is a subject with discrete timetabled lessons, where what other people believe is explored. I think you are confused about the amount of time given to it and/or exaggerating for effect.

derxa · 13/11/2015 17:39

There are many things I disagree with, but that doesn't mean I don't want to learn more about them. Exactly Worra

cailindana · 13/11/2015 17:40

'How is a girl covering her head because it's a traditional part of a religion the same thing as blatant racism?'

Girls do not choose to be girls. In this case the girls are being asked to cover their heads purely because they are girls. How is that any different than black children being asked to do something purely because they are black?

bettyberry · 13/11/2015 17:42

This is where I stand. YABU

Your daughters should go. It is important that they experience different traditions, religions and understand places of worship. Lack of knowledge breeds fear.

You, as a parent, should explain your feelings about women being treated differently. Make this a lesson for them that women in all cultures and religions are treated differently and that you believe everyone should be treated the same; with respect and dignity. You can ask them how they feel about having to cover their heads. Talk about children their age in other countries who have no choice but to cover all of their body even their arms and legs and they have the freedom to wear skirts, shorts and vest tops. Can go swimming in the same pool as their male friends.

Letting them go, imo, is not saying you agree with women being treated differently. It is you putting their need to understand and learn about the differences in the world first and having to cover their head is a tiny way of putting themselves in the shoes of girls who have no choice.

Remember, it wasn't that long ago women were required to wear a hat in church. As for the head covering for this trip, a hat will suffice.

DinosaursRoar · 13/11/2015 17:43

SparklyTinselTits - it's both treated one group differently based on physical characteristics - one would be racism as you say, the other isn't 'traditions' it's 'sexist traditions', if a religion did have rules based on race, would that make it any less racist because it was traditional?

SparklyTinselTits · 13/11/2015 17:44

cailin but my point was that in this country, Muslim girls have the choice to wear a hijab or not. Yes, a lot of them choose to wear it, as they are proud to represent their religion, more power to them! It is not forced upon them here like it is in other countries. So the whole "it's just because they are girls" arguement doesn't wash with me.

green18 · 13/11/2015 17:44

Iris In my experience, timetabled RE lessons are vague in their study of the Christian faith, spending more time exploring values rather than teaching them about the history of the faith, what happens in church, study of religious items etc. When other faiths are explored, I find chn are able to recount facts about the five pillars of Islam for example and fasting but don't know what an altar is!

AFewGoodWomen · 13/11/2015 17:45

In what way of secondary age files being respectful in wearing a scarf? Respectful that men at the mosque might fancy them??

IrisVillarca · 13/11/2015 17:45

The Diocesan Inspectors must be a bit shit then, green. Which is unusual, to say the least.

RJnomaaaaaargh · 13/11/2015 17:46

My husband was turned away from the cathedral in Venice in the summer because his shorts exposed his knees.

I have no issue with respecting things like this if visiting someone's place of worship.

I'd rather explain the bigger issues to my kids and let them see things for themselves.

green18 · 13/11/2015 17:46

Well, lets just say there is often mild panic when a visit is due!

cailindana · 13/11/2015 17:47

'cailin but my point was that in this country, Muslim girls have the choice to wear a hijab or not. Yes, a lot of them choose to wear it, as they are proud to represent their religion, more power to them! It is not forced upon them here like it is in other countries. So the whole "it's just because they are girls" arguement doesn't wash with me.'

What?? The girls are being asked to cover their heads, not the boys. It doesn't matter whether some muslim girls have the choice to wear a headscarf or not. In this case one group, ie girls, is being asked to do something that another group, ie boys, is not being asked to do. They are being asked to do it simply because they are girls. Which is exactly the same as asking black children to do something simply because they are black.

Gwenhwyfar · 13/11/2015 17:47

Would you refuse to let boys go into a church because they have to take their hats off and girls don't?

(Sorry if that point has already been made, haven't had time to read the whole thread yet).

bettyberry · 13/11/2015 17:47

Also, OP, does your child's school have a separate uniform list for boys and girls? Do you follow that rule?

IrisVillarca · 13/11/2015 17:47

There is a difference between Collective Worship and RE lessons. You do realise that, don't you, green. Perhaps talk your SMT if you are a bit unsure.

nightsky010 · 13/11/2015 17:50

MrsMolesworth

I'm shocked by what you experienced! Disgusting.

Chinchilla & Calindana
it doesn't matter at all if you'd be ok with female priests, the fact is the Catholic church says women can't be priests purely because they are women. Why any woman would accept that level of disrespect is beyond me.

^ Exactly! I just don't understand why women would want anything to do with religions which treat them like this. Nor do I understand why homosexuals want anything to do with these religions. If I were them I'd be telling the church to F off!

green18 · 13/11/2015 17:51

Not sure what you are trying to suggest Iris and I wonder if you use the same patronising manner with your class. Nice touch.

LeaveMyWingsBehindMe · 13/11/2015 17:52

I'm not entirely sure why it's necessary or useful to go into a place of worship in order to be able to learn about or better understand a religion anyway. Confused

MistyBells · 13/11/2015 17:52

I would not be happy with this at all. Much like the school uniform rules at my children's school kindly stating girls may wear trousers if cold. Er, no.