to not send my girls on this school trip because of my beliefs

[JustGiveMeTwoMinutes]

The trip is to a mosque and the girls (year 3 and 4) have to cover their heads with a scarf, the boys don't have to.

Just to be clear about where I am coming from, this is about a specific practice which I believe is discriminatory and therefore disagree with. I would not choose myself to enter a building that I could only enter if I wore particular clothes but where that requirement was limited to one gender or one group defined by arbitrary characteristics. I would be happy to cover my head as a sign of respect/tradition if everyone entering the building was required to do so.

They can make their own decision on this when they are adults.

Am I being ridiculous and petty or is it reasonable to stand up for my view that just because a custom is part of a religion that does not excuse it being discriminatory?

I have been to Morocco a few times and never saw any woman in full covered dress. I have seen more ladies in and around Harrods fully swathed than IN Marrakech.

It really saddens me that so many of the Paris bombers seem to have affiliations with Morocco.

bambini the current trend for a very conservative Islam comes from Saudi, I understand. My understanding is that many of the older Muslims in the UK are as mystified by it as the rest of us.

There is no real need to cover one's face, is there?

www.nytimes.com/2015/11/22/world/middleeast/isis-wives-and-enforcers-in-syria-recount-collaboration-anguish-and-escape.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=photo-spot-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

^ Fascinating article about three girls and their life before ISIS took over Racca. And how their lives changed when they had to marry ISIS fighters.

They said they wore bikini's on beaches, had BF, and normal lives, moved around freely with no restrictions at all.

• “Before, I was like you,” she told a reporter, waving her arms up and down. “I had a boyfriend, I went to the beach, I wore a bikini. Even in Syria, we wore short skirts and tank tops, and all of this was normal. Even my brothers didn’t care — I had no trouble from anyone

Can't possibly read the full thread but wanted to say my Pakistani friend who used to wear the shilwah kameez and cover her hair said women weren't separated in prophet Mohammad's day and didn't wear their hair covered up or faces either. Maybe if it was red hot or a sandstorm of course. That would be sensible.

So it's more of a cultural rather than a religious thing.

The Koran advises on modest dress and not a certain kind of dress.

The Islam I learnt about from my friend was kind, gentle, humble, modest and nothing at all like what's going on here. There was always food and drink on the table, lots of laughter. Sadly they have passed away but they were the loveliest people . They would be horrified at what is going on.

I feel sorry for decent law abiding Muslims. They must think they've landed on another planet.

.

A really interesting Muslim commenter on the Guardian Comment is free called Eminexon has written about how disturbed she is at seeing young Muslims whose cultural heritage is Pakistani becoming "Arabified" in their dress and ideas, due to the huge amount of Wahabist religious propaganda being thrown at the Muslim community by wealthy Saudi sources. It's actually a kind of cultural imperialism coming from Saudi.

The documentary Bitter Lake gives an interesting view of the roots of the Saudi influence on world affairs.

Arabified yes, that's how my relatives see it. Being forced to dress up like a medeveil Saudi.

YY Kestral, and it needs recognizing and stopping.

How are children supposed to make their own decision when they are older if they have not had the education?

But Saudi is our new richerthangod best friend. Wait until we don't need their oil...

Arabified yes, that's how my relatives see it. Being forced to dress up like a medieval Saudi.
ABSOLUTELY

THAT is what should be rejected : the Wahabist extremism that Saudi spreads round the world

War is one thing.
A theatre on a Friday evening is completely and utterly different

If oil prices stay low the Saudi's will start to face internal problems. At some point they are going to face a budgetary squeeze.

US fracking is having a major major impact for good - as the US is less in need of foreign oil. The UK should get on with building new nuclear plants and taking energy from Iceland. The sooner the Medieval Saudis are less rich the better.

The backwards movement of many in Islam is terrible. It didn't used to be like this in most countries.

I was of course as shocked by the school children killed by the Taliban a year ago as I was by Paris [pwww.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/16/taliban-attack-army-public-school-pakistan-peshawar]]

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/16/taliban-attack-army-public-school-pakistan-peshawar

Would be nice to know what exactly you disagree with, Batshit. I take it you have evidence to back up your rather blunt assertion. Or some kind of argument.

US fracking is having a major major impact for good
Oh yes, flooding Europe with cheap coal has been great
as the US is less in need of foreign oil
And if the US would export oil then Saudi could be REALLY weakened
The UK should get on with building new nuclear plants
Absolutely not.
That money should be put into battery technology to increase the impact of renewable with no decommissioning costs
and taking energy from Iceland
La la land

Batshit:

Do you think the Wahhabis don't yield an enormous influence in Saudi Arabia?

Do you think they don't build mosques and sponsor clerics worldwide to promote the Wahhabi brand of early medieval Islam?

Please account for the rise of the veil in both the middle east and the west over the decades since 1980.
Please account for all the calls for Sharia Law in the west and also the existence of Sharia courts in the UK.
Please explain how Sharia complements western civil law and the idea of a secular society.

DeoGratias:
The Koran doesn't require little girls to cover their head. the fact some more ignorant backward muslims do just shows they need to learn there is no such requirement and that the more forward thinking muslims who seek not to discriminate between men and women are right.

This is exactly what I stated about Islam and the problem of decentralisation everything is up for grabs. One determined group ('ignorant backward muslims') states that the only way to be a good Muslim woman or girl is to be covered. One group says the Koran says nothing about this. The pro veil group still pushes its agenda, believing the others are heretics mosques are built, madrassas appear with teachers trained to promote a certain view, and soon you have women in all sincerity claiming veiling is a way to show their devoutness, even though bare heads were perfectly fine for their grannies back in Beirut or Baghdad or Cairo or even Pakistan. 'Forward thinking Muslims' are considered so reprehensible that they are killed or fatwas are issued against them. Fundamentalist Muslims hate 'forward thinking muslims' as much as they hate Infidels. Each group seeks power. Each group has everything to fight for and no conception of defeat. The stakes are high - paradise or its alternative.

This is from 2 weeks ago (re my Iceland point)

"Multi-billion pound plan to power UK homes with Icelandic volcanoes within 10 years

British homes could soon be powered by volcanoes in Iceland, as plans to build 750 miles of cabling beneath the Norwegian Sea are due to be unveiled today.

Prime Minister David Cameron is expected to announce that the UK and Iceland are looking into setting up a multi-billion electricity pipeline between the two countries to pump renewable energy into Britain.

This 'interconnector' would mean hydro- and geothermal-generated electricity, which currently fuels around 95 per cent of Iceland's energy use, could be exported directly to the UK.

A newly-created UK-Iceland Energy Task Force has been set up to examine the feasibility of the scheme, and will report back within six months.

If it goes ahead, officials said the project would take between seven and 10 years to construct, and would provide a long-term source of renewable energy and securing Britain's future energy needs.

Mr Cameron held talks with Icelandic Prime Minister Sigmundur David Gunnlaugsson as he visited the country for the Northern Future Forum.

He is the first British prime minister to visit Reykjavik since 1941, when Winston Churchill made the trip."

deogratias
Task Forces are just bollocks : scientific link please

At first glance it seems a viable scheme that's been mooted for a while. National Grid say it's technically feasible and commercially viable.

Now it's for the UK to put the investment money in. Will George Osborne agree?

Lass - coptic and orthodox churches require head to be covered.

ena
At first glance it seems a viable scheme that's been mooted for a while. National Grid say it's technically feasible and commercially viable.
Link please

Gideon will not invest in ANYTHING that he cannot pawn to the Chinese

but if you look at how the Chinese actually run big construction projects

• there will be no UK jobs
• the contract terms will be ignored
• there will be no benefit to the UK long term

anybody who has seen their work in Africa and the Caribbean will back me up

I do think it may be skewered by Osborne's obsession with the chinese deal. Maybe we should lobby MPs - especially if you have Tory one, Deo!