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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to not send my girls on this school trip because of my beliefs

942 replies

JustGiveMeTwoMinutes · 13/11/2015 16:39

The trip is to a mosque and the girls (year 3 and 4) have to cover their heads with a scarf, the boys don't have to.

Just to be clear about where I am coming from, this is about a specific practice which I believe is discriminatory and therefore disagree with. I would not choose myself to enter a building that I could only enter if I wore particular clothes but where that requirement was limited to one gender or one group defined by arbitrary characteristics. I would be happy to cover my head as a sign of respect/tradition if everyone entering the building was required to do so.

They can make their own decision on this when they are adults.

Am I being ridiculous and petty or is it reasonable to stand up for my view that just because a custom is part of a religion that does not excuse it being discriminatory?

OP posts:

LeaveMyWingsBehindMe · 14/11/2015 11:43

But if your argument is that lack of clothing causes rape then why don't men and women get raped left right and centre on the beach or at the swimming baths? Why don't people get raped in summer more than in winter just walking about in broad daylight?

Why don't you say what you actually mean?

Is it free mixing you are against? Do you think that a woman in a nightclub deserves to get raped because she put herself in the company of men while wearing a short tight dress? Did she walk out in front of Melvali's bus?

cailindana · 14/11/2015 11:45

I find it very weird that some people genuinely believe that a rapist goes out, sees some clothing and says 'ah I'll not bother tonight.' Surely that means clothes are like some sort of magic shield? Shouldn't we let the army know that clothes protect people from violent assault? I mean men could start wearing clothes then and they wouldn't get assaulted...oh wait sorry.

originalmavis · 14/11/2015 11:46

Try asking a woman who actually lives in a theocracy. You wont find many who say that in reality its all peachy. I dont think they sell rose tinted glasses in the ME, unless you are an uber rich type from Saudi/Dubai.

Smokinggirl123 · 14/11/2015 11:56

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LeaveMyWingsBehindMe · 14/11/2015 11:57

I currently have 24 unsolicited friends requests from total strangers on facebook who have picked up on my profile because I belong to a facebook page that supports a common interest (nothing to do with Islam.) They are ALL from Muslim men. The number of other unsolicited friends requests I have had from non Muslim men is….zero.

I know many of the other non-Muslim women in the group have had the same problem, many of them are younger, prettier and more single than me and they are inundundated and hassled much more and they have mentioned it on the page often. There are also many covered Muslim women in the group and presumably as they never comment on the topic when asked, they don't have the same problem, it seems they are left alone out of some skewed sense of respect, where as we are viewed as easy game.

Again, most non-Muslim men don't take the sight of my uncovered hair as an invitation to try their luck, but it seems that many Muslim men do.

So I must conclude that we don't have a problem with men, so much as a problem with Muslim men. If you are a Muslim woman you can either use your alleged 'equal but different' status to challenge this, or you can cover up and help to perpetuate it. Your choice. And in this country you do have a choice, and (outside of your own community at least) no-one will shoot you in the head, rape you or throw acid in your face for it.

cailindana · 14/11/2015 11:58

So daylight is now also a defence against assault. Smoking is there something wrong with you?

cailindana · 14/11/2015 12:00

Smoking, you do realise that the vast vast majority of women are raped at home by people they know, at all times of the day and night?

Shockers · 14/11/2015 12:00

We've just been on a trip to a mosque (Yr2). Only the adults were asked to cover their hair.

Some of the little girls chose to though- they saw it as dressing up and nothing more sinister. One of them asked why headscarves are worn and was frankly nonplussed at the thought of her hair 'distracting' the boys. She told the man that, in our class, it's the boys that usually distract her .

It was good for them to know that there are different cultures out there, and whilst we may not agree with some of the practices, we are respectful of the fact that not everyone holds the same beliefs.

redstrawberries101 · 14/11/2015 12:01

Candia - men are allowed to pray at home but are ENCOURAGeD to pray at mosque.

Men and women are segregated at mosque yes. This is more because women hardly attend the mosque ?out of choice) and a woman may not feel comfortable attending mosque if she was perhaps the only lady amongst men. Men must attend Friday prayers but this is not obligatory for females but she can join if she wishes.

Imam is the male version. A woman can be an 'alima' which is a similar role.

I think some of you are getting a bit Carried away, it's only just been in the news that companies still pay men more for the same role and there are hardly any women in the boardroom. Doesn't make it right but it's the way it is. That's nothing to do with religion??

CuppaBiccieBliss · 14/11/2015 12:02

Me, I did, smokinggirl. Perhaps I made the mistake of standing in a shadow, if only I'd known that sunlight could have protected me. Don't I feel silly now

keyboardgirl123 · 14/11/2015 12:07

Cuppa that's what sunscreen is for

cailindana · 14/11/2015 12:08

'I think some of you are getting a bit Carried away, it's only just been in the news that companies still pay men more for the same role and there are hardly any women in the boardroom. Doesn't make it right but it's the way it is. That's nothing to do with religion??'

I really don't understand this logic - it comes up again and again. The fact that one type of sexism exists DOES NOT excuse any other type of sexism. You are right that there is discrimination at work. That does not mean that we have to be ok with there also discrimination in religion.

I'm questioning whether you're actually a muslim tbh. Are you seriously trying to tell me an 'alima' is equal to an imam?

The segregation at mosque is ABSOLUTELY NOT for women's comfort. That is total bullshit. There are a few different explanations for it but it is absolutely not for comfort and again I'm surprised you don't know this.

Any group that tries to treat me differently purely because I do not have a penis will never ever earn my respect, no matter how kindly the different treatment is meant. Islam segregates men and women and gives them different opportunities and roles. That is not acceptable in my eyes.

cailindana · 14/11/2015 12:09

And you still haven't answered my question - why are men encouraged to leave their young children and pray at Mosque but women aren't?

redstrawberries101 · 14/11/2015 12:10

CailindA - i said myself it's not right!

Yes there are few explanations.

You should read the ideal Muslim and the ideal muslimah books. And study the Quran. Then come back to me with all your issues. Can sense the hatred in your messages, you should take it easy!

DeoGratias · 14/11/2015 12:11

We are not getting carreid away and the fact there is some sexism in the West does not mean there is not a huge amount of sexism in Islam. It is much much worse in Islam than it is in the West.

I certainly support this "So I must conclude that we don't have a problem with men, so much as a problem with Muslim men. If you are a Muslim woman you can either use your alleged 'equal but different' status to challenge this, or you can cover up and help to perpetuate it. Your choice. And in this country you do have a choice, and (outside of your own community at least) no-one will shoot you in the head, rape you or throw acid in your face for it."

What is so wrong with Muslim men that they have this rape thing in them>? Is it genetic? What is wrong with them - presumably it comes about because they were brought up being taught sexistm islamic beliefes and had they not they would be like Western men without that sexism and desire to impose themselves on women.

keyboardgirl123 · 14/11/2015 12:11

cailindana There should be more women in the boardroom when there's more women in oil-rigs, construction, waste collection etc.

cailindana · 14/11/2015 12:14

'You should read the ideal Muslim and the ideal muslimah books. And study the Quran. Then come back to me with all your issues. Can sense the hatred in your messages, you should take it easy!'

Right. You are the one who's getting the details wrong. And I won't take it easy thanks. I think it's pretty normal to be a bit worked up about a group of people telling you're a lesser being for having one set of body parts instead of another. It has nothing to with hatred and everything to do with self respect.

cailindana · 14/11/2015 12:15

'Cailindana There should be more women in the boardroom when there's more women in oil-rigs, construction, waste collection etc.'

Sorry what? So women can only gain power in companies if they meet certain criteria that you set, not because they are human beings?

DeoGratias · 14/11/2015 12:16

I have no hatred at all. I've worked in Muslim countries. I was presented with a Koran in English in Iran. I have obviously likem ost educated western women read the Koran and other religious books. I know what it says and much of it is awful.

I hate no one. I don't believe in killing by drone. I think we should get out of the Middle East and leave them alone to practise their religions by slaughtering each other. Not our business and we need to drive the sexism and intolerance which is part of Islam out so that all that remains is feminist non homophobic muslims working very hard in peace in the UK as indeed many of them do.

This morning none of us are going to take it easy - Islam is killing and maiming people all over the planet at the moment particularly other muslims and we are not going to let it happen here. Taking it easy will just play into the hands of the terrorists.

keyboardgirl123 · 14/11/2015 12:18

You want a quota for women in the boardroom. Why not a quoat for oil-riggers, waste collectors and construction workers? Feminism eh?

cailindana · 14/11/2015 12:19

When did I say I wanted a quota for women in the boardroom?

hampsterdam · 14/11/2015 12:20

I've reported smokinggirl.
So Islam gives women rights? That's lovely but these girls aren't being given the right to be treated equally to the boys.
Men are more likely to rape a woman that's not covered? That is deeply offensive to men and women. As the mother of a son I find the idea that he is inherently a rapist that will need protecting from the temptation of random womens hair less he cant control his male urges morally reprehensible.

keyboardgirl123 · 14/11/2015 12:20

Not you personally, but the madradfems do

MNHQ

DawnMumsnet · 14/11/2015 12:21

Afternoon all,

We've had a few reports about some of the recent posts on this thread and thought now would be a good time to post a link to our We Believe You rape awareness campaign.

And just to spell it out, here's a list of the rape myths we're challenging.

Many thanks.

keyboardgirl123 · 14/11/2015 12:22

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