to not send my girls on this school trip because of my beliefs

[JustGiveMeTwoMinutes]

The trip is to a mosque and the girls (year 3 and 4) have to cover their heads with a scarf, the boys don't have to.

Just to be clear about where I am coming from, this is about a specific practice which I believe is discriminatory and therefore disagree with. I would not choose myself to enter a building that I could only enter if I wore particular clothes but where that requirement was limited to one gender or one group defined by arbitrary characteristics. I would be happy to cover my head as a sign of respect/tradition if everyone entering the building was required to do so.

They can make their own decision on this when they are adults.

Am I being ridiculous and petty or is it reasonable to stand up for my view that just because a custom is part of a religion that does not excuse it being discriminatory?

Melvali - genuine q here, so I'm not prodding - would you ever want to live under a totally islamic state?

I'm assuming that your family have come from some other part of the world as some stage, why did they move? Would they ever want to return? Would you consider a move there? I've not known anyone move from an Islamic state and return 100% of their own free will (mainly to be close to elderly parents). Most are now moving their parents abroad to be with them.

Melvali - would you want your daughters to cover themselves?

Hey OP

I'm sure the mosque would be happy to not have your girls cover their heads - perhaps ring them and have a chat about it - or discuss with the teacher. I understand where your concerns are coming from.

It may be helpful for you to accompany the trip and if they would like to, your girls could ask about headscarf. Visiting places of worship may help deepen your understanding or even question it. I'm sure the mosque hosts are used to all sorts of questions. The should be happy to be challenged respectfully.

In an era of eating disorders, constant perfection to aspire to on TV/film, pressure to get great grades, fierce competition to get jobs and security, novel and strange sexual behaviour amongst teens - sexting, nude selfies etc, I think women CAN gain comfort from the spiritual and physical act of wearing a hijab. We as outsiders cannot dictate that women feel stronger, empowered and comforted wearing their hijaab. They're just normal people like you and I going about their business.

I would say extremism, terrorism, ISIS etc is a completely different topic to the above.

Original Mavis - I wouldn't mind living in an Islamic state. Personally I have been born and grown up in uk so I'm quite happy here and consider this my home.

What these- I certainly wouldn't force them but I imagine they would ask me why I do. I would explain and leave it at that. Their choice.

Virtuo- agree with you!

What would you say to your daughters was the reason you covered yourself? Would you say it was to stop men looking at you? How would you explain that girls cover but boys don't?

Melvali, depending on the branch of Islam, I would lose the right to worship as a peer among men. I would also lose the right to become a recognised leader in my religion.

Also if I divorced and remarried, in the eyes of the teachings of Islam I would lose rights to my children.

Calinda- men are encouraged to pray at mosque whereas a woman can pray at home or mosque. This is because she may have young children etc. She can freely pray with male family members.

She would not lose the right to her children.

Yes you could not be an 'imam' but you could certainly be a 'leader' and hold focus groups teach Arabic etc and be a prominent member of the mosque

So I was just imagining the mosques that separate men and women?

And why are men not allowed to pray at home when they have young children? Is it because children are considered the woman's responsibility?

I feel some of you have taken my comments out of context.

Erm no….. I don't think I have.

I am not really sure what other context there is.

Why aren't the muslim men looking after yong children whilst the women lead the mosques? It's just sexizt to the core but I believe in freedom of religion as long as others aren't harmed by it and I want to live in a country where I can say there is no God and Muslims are wrong, and draw Jesus and Mo cartoons and where muslims can say women's view in court is worth half that of a man etc etc. that is liberal democracy and why so many muslims are flocking to live here as we are a better society than theirs.

Smokinggirl123 did you join Mumsnet just to make that ridiculous and totally unsubstantiated comment, or did you just name change to be goady?

it's the truth

This was the comment

"Exactly. This is what we try to explain to the feminists. Cover up more and less rapes happen because less attention to the girl. But the MadRadFems start shreaking about it"

Women who want fairness and equality and peace are not madradfems. Most women in the UK are more advanced than those in the Middle East. Around 1890 we fought the battle to wear clothes that allow us to run and jump and cycle and be free and we fight to keep that freedom. Women who choose to curtail themselves instead by adopting the clothing of UK Victorian era when women were kept down are a throwback we hope will disappear as Muslim women more and more often realise how wrong covering is both morally and in terms of fairness for men and women.

(Shoudl be fewer not less as it's plural but perhaps English isn't the first language here so let's be nice)

So why aren't you helping middle eastern women?

What is the justification for not allowing women to be imams?

Smoking Are you going to answer my question?

And whose 'truth' anyway?

If you are telling me that a Muslim man is less likely to sexually harass, molest, groom and ultimately attempt to rape an uncovered non-Muslim female purely because she's uncovered and not a Muslim, more than he's likely to attempt to rape a covered Muslim woman then I won't argue with you, yes it's probably the truth, if Rotherham is anything to go by.And certainly my experiences of being leered at and given unwanted and uninvited attention and having my personal space invaded by seedy Muslim men would back that up.

As for the rest of the common or garden non-Muslim rapists out there, I'm not really sure that what women wear on a daily basis going about their normal business has much bearing on whether they get raped or not, really. Do rape figures go down in winter when everyone is dressed more modestly because it's cold out? Is there a rape frenzy in the summer months where women suddenly start getting dragged off the streets and raped because they are wearing thin strappy tops and flimsy short skirts and men can't control themselves?

I'd love to hear all about your 'truth.'

I would think that living somewhere where you can't say, drive, leave the house as you wish, travel/hold a passport/work/use contraception, etc without 'a mans permission' etc would certainly take the glosd off living in an theocracy. Especially if you had difficulty leaving.

And yes, women can have children taken away on some places, if they remarry after divorce for example. Even if the ex is a complete loon.

The danger with some religions is that they demand complete affiliation and loyalty, even of it is completely at odds with the country/culture on which you live. You demand special treatment that is at odds with the native practices. Practices are reinterpreted from a distance of time and geography.

In the modern world of mememe, is all about rights but not of responsibilities.

Women don't necessarily cover up in the winter. I've seen Saturday nights in December when they are having a girls night out and they still wearing next to nothing

I'm surprised you're not aware that Islamic teaching recommends that man has more rights to his children than their mother if the mother remarries. And that's an extremely mild version of it.

It's true to my knowledge.

It's happened to me a number of times, in person and online that Muslim women have said 'Oh but Islam is great for women' and when I've asked, 'then why is this this and this the case' they've just gone silent. It's like someone defending an abusive relationship with 'oh but he loves me!' when you ask 'why does he hit you then?' there's no answer.