to not send my girls on this school trip because of my beliefs

[JustGiveMeTwoMinutes]

The trip is to a mosque and the girls (year 3 and 4) have to cover their heads with a scarf, the boys don't have to.

Just to be clear about where I am coming from, this is about a specific practice which I believe is discriminatory and therefore disagree with. I would not choose myself to enter a building that I could only enter if I wore particular clothes but where that requirement was limited to one gender or one group defined by arbitrary characteristics. I would be happy to cover my head as a sign of respect/tradition if everyone entering the building was required to do so.

They can make their own decision on this when they are adults.

Am I being ridiculous and petty or is it reasonable to stand up for my view that just because a custom is part of a religion that does not excuse it being discriminatory?

Original Mavis that is correct. But we don't walk out in front of a bus and then hope we don't get knocked down. And let's face it, men do prefer a bit of skirt. Even though I didn't dress much differently prior to the scarf, I noticed that men didn't flirt with me as much and just treat me like im off limits. I have had shop assisants etc being quite rude either judging me and thinking im a terrorist or just assuming i can't speak English or don't know what im talking about. That's their problem not mine.

The problem is that if you have a lot of moderate muslims a few of the sillier young men and women will follow extreme wings. If that wasn't there in the first place (the religion in the homes) and also if we didn't interfere in Middle East politics or kill with drones (I am against both of those too) then we would not have less violence of the kind we are now seeing.

I am old enough to remember the IRA too although they were less of a problem and a bit in a sense kinder (although pretty awful in their day too).

We fought very hard over 100 years ago in the UK to ensure women did not cover up and I will continue to fight against it as it limits them and their freedom to job, run, cycle, perform normal tasks in a way men are not so limited. I dislike covering for women but I won't ban it because I'm English and tolerant. However I reserve my right to say it's bad and morally wrong and sexist and damaging to women. If the men can't control their sexuality in Islam why not say the men can't leave the house without a woman present and cloth the men in a burka. Why does it always have to be the women who suffer? Why not just switch the sexist rules around to curb men not women if it's not about sexist and is all about freedom. Why not let the men struggle to cycle to work in burkas whilst the women skit freely in their shorts and T shirts safe in the knowledge no muslim man is allowed out without a female minder?

I dunno. Most of my family live/emigrated from the ME where you cover at gunpoint. So I know women are still raped, groped, beaten even with their scrap of cloth. They don't believe on setting themselves apart. As great grandma used to say 'you dress to not stand out. She would, as elderly ladies did back on the day, wear a headscarf at home but not abroad. Very devout, extremely respectable family.

Melvali I find your attitude really sad. Firstly men are not hopeless animals - you do not and should not need a protective shell. You should be able to live freely in the world without fear.

Secondly, page 3 is degrading, yes. The answer however is not to cover women up but to expect better from men.

In all of this - Paris included - the common denominator is male entitlement and violence.

I've been to catholic places where it wasn't just requested - it was demanded that you cover up bare shoulders and knees. For example, if you hope to catch a glimpse or rare manuscripts housed in library of St Catherine's Monestary in Sinai - you better not rock up in your shorts.

And outside of the U.K., it was the norm that women of a certain generation covered their heads in church even back in the 1970s.

Melvali - 'we don't walk in front of a bus' implies to me that you think either Tha being attacked by men is inevitable and so women have to stay out of men's way, or that you believe attacks by men are accidental, in the sense that a woman 'got in the way.' Do you believe this?

Yes, men do 'prefer a bit of skirt' whatever that means.

But most of them are capable of understanding when it's appropriate to give a woman attention because they find her attractive and when it isn't.

And as for the bus analogy, buses aren't out of control objects with no driver and no breaks, any more than men are out of control beasts with sex on the brain and no sense of common decency or manners. It's also interesting that you consider not covering as putting yourself deliberately at risk, and you liken it to stepping out in front of a bus on purpose.

It's shame that you think like that, being highly educated and all. I can only imagine that you must have grown up listening to men spouting entitled misogynistic shit about women 'asking for it' to have arrived at the conclusion that you should need a 'protective shell' in order to be able to safely navigate everyday life without fear of molestation, gawping or general disrespect.

The irony for me is that the only times I have ever encountered that kind of unwanted attention have been when I have been an uncovered woman in largely Muslim areas or in Islamic countries. I find in general that in the UK I can go about my business without being constantly hassled by men or assumed to be 'worth a go' because my hair is on show.

Funny that.

Thanks Melvali, I would defend any woman's right to cover just as I would to not cover if that is their own choice.

YANBU. I have the same views. If muslim girls were attending a Christian place of worship on a school trip would they be expected to remove their head scarfs in order to enter.? I don't think so.

If I were visiting a foreign country where this was the norm I would respect the local traditions and cover up. But in the UK on a school trip I don't think it is necessary.

I also don't believe the prepubescent girls are expected to cover their heads, but am not an expert so could be wrong. Perhaps let them go to experience other cultures and religions, but on the understanding with the school that they will not be covering their heads?

I think the men need educating.

Whenever members of a particular faith group do something hideous, child abuse, terrorism- there are always people saying "oh, but that's just a few mavericks- that's not what most Muslims or Catholics or whatever are like"

Well it obviously isn't. But the only way it's going to stop is if members of those faiths stand up and say Enough.

Little girls covering is more a north African thing - cultural rather than religious I think.

Islam and Catholicism have hatred at their core - hatred of women. That is why they attract butters who enjoy the feeling of power and who take that hatred to its logical conclusion. Then we have the moderates banging on about peace, when the religion they peddle is about inequality, subjugation and control.

"YANBU. I have the same views. If muslim girls were attending a Christian place of worship on a school trip would they be expected to remove their head scarfs in order to enter.? I don't think so."

Yes, because Christian churches are famous for insisting that women have bare heads.................

What utter bollocks.

Islamic State are Muslims. And they need sorting out. They have no regard for human life. If you press any Muslim long enough they will have to admit that the way Muslims treat women is fine and that everyone should convert to Islam.

Ah but Bert, as my relies say 'we'd be the first against the wall' when they see what the isil or wahabis are getting up to. Each part fighting against the other 'not proper' part of the religion.

Melvali do you have daughters? If so do, do you/would you expect them to cover? Would you dress them in hijab/scarf?

On this thread there is an educated woman openly accepting and even endorsing her own lack of freedom. The men who run these religions love that, they get a kick out of having people meekly accept control. They are very much on the same continuum as the extremists. They may not wave a gun but they are happy to terrorise people in their own petty misogynistic and state-sanctioned way.

Enough, that's not true at all. I'm CofE and none has ever questioned my religion or right to be so. I've had relatives go abroad because of the legal situation of women. Maybe it's people who haven't actually lived the life that think it's all honey and roses?

No it's not all peace and equality. It's looking over your shoulder, towing the line and worrying about the future.

I feel some of you have taken my comments out of context. I agree with what your saying about men needing controlled. And unfortunately also agree that in the uk you can go about your business without much attention and it's worse abroad. We can talk till the cows come home. I just do what I feel comfortable with. Islam gives women so many rights though, but you just need to be willing to study it.

Calindana - no I don't believe that at all. That's not what I was getting at.

See, Melvali, I've been told that 'Islam gives women si many tights' before but no Muslim sill actually tell me what those rights are and I can't for the life of me find any myself. All I can see is that if I became a muslim I would lose rights.

Sorry typing too fast, that should say 'so many rights'

If that's not what you were getting at, what were you getting at? What does your 'walking in front of buses' comment mean?

Cailindana - what rights do you think you would lose?