to not send my girls on this school trip because of my beliefs

[JustGiveMeTwoMinutes]

The trip is to a mosque and the girls (year 3 and 4) have to cover their heads with a scarf, the boys don't have to.

Just to be clear about where I am coming from, this is about a specific practice which I believe is discriminatory and therefore disagree with. I would not choose myself to enter a building that I could only enter if I wore particular clothes but where that requirement was limited to one gender or one group defined by arbitrary characteristics. I would be happy to cover my head as a sign of respect/tradition if everyone entering the building was required to do so.

They can make their own decision on this when they are adults.

Am I being ridiculous and petty or is it reasonable to stand up for my view that just because a custom is part of a religion that does not excuse it being discriminatory?

I've visited several mosques at the time when midday prayers were happening. In one I had to cover my head, and that was a mosque where there was no space for women to worship. In the others I wasn't asked to cover my head - either I was in a separate room with the women, or in a general room where men and women sat separately.

There's a big variation in practice regarding head coverings for female visitors. At all mosques you will be asked to remove your shoes (something that I feel quite weird about but I did it anyway).

If you go to someone's house you generally expect to keep their rules and I think the same thing goes for a house of prayer. It really worries me that the head covering g issue is getting as politicised here as it is in France, and the excuse the head covering issue gives for really nasty prejudices to be aired. Will it do a child any harm to wear a head scarf for an hour? Surely not. And to use that as an excuse to prevent them understanding other people seems to me deeply illiberal.

Regardless of the head covering issue I found it fascinating to witness Muslim prayer times and it made me think a lot about how praying together forms people into a community.

More than half a mile would usually involve transport, Leave, and coach costs are horrendous even for short journeys. Probably be feasible in a city, but outside (even one or two miles outside) it's not going to be possible to get whole year groups into every available place of worship.

I know of one school whose sole visit is to the Jehovah's Witness Kingdom Hall round the corner. Hardly representative of the range of religions practiced within a 10 mile radius and imo probably skews the opportunities and views available to those primary children. It's a non faith primary but they don't visit any of the Catholic, Methodist or C of E churches in the area.

The sexism in Islam is appalling. The fact that when it was set up my man (not God, God doesn't exist) it was trying to protect women - men can have several wives as that is better than dumping mistresses all the time (although it doesn't allow women several husbands as sexist to the core of course) in its day might have been enlightened but today it's just old fashioned, anti women, sexist and wrong and sadly I have to say this it leads to what we have seen in Paris today.

Yes that was not in the name of the muslim women posting on thsi thread but had all these parents brought their children up atheist there would be none of this, no shooting in Paris, none of it. Okay you'd get an occasional loan woolf Brevik (although even he had Islam at the heart of his issues to be fiar) but you wouldn't have all the violence we now see.

Today make a stand and burn your head scarf in public. Je suis Charlie.

And Deo Gratias's post shows exactly why we need more understanding not less, and how ignorance and prejudice come together, and how to make a cheap and nasty shot out of tragedy.

Yanbu. I wouldn't let them go either.

I am in favour of understanding and talking. It is only by talking I will persuade mumsnet muslims there is no God and their religion is sexist and they may well want that the other way round. Unlike Muslim nations I am in favour of free speech.

Are you also in favour of listening?

Yy, niminy.

DS's school are currently investigating and discussing in RE how Isis are not representative of Islam. I doubt the primary curriculum covers that as the areas covered are very basic but there is nothing to stop parents opening that dialogue at any age, in a way that is appropriate for their dc's age and understanding.

It's a tragedy when large numbers of innocent people are killed in, say, an earthquake. But when they are deliberately gunned down in the name of an ideology, it's ideologically motivated mass murder. It is not cheap or nasty to draw attention to this. Sure, 99.9% of Muslims would't do anything like this. But Deogratias's point remains true: without the ideology, ideologically-inspired atrocities would not occur.

DeoGratias I never had you down as naïve. Of course there would still be mass attacks if everyone were raised atheist. Religion doesn't cause violence, it is an excuse, an outlet for violent people not to take responsibility for their unwarranted blood lust.

Elliot Rodger stabbed and shot twenty one people, killing seven (including himself) in outrage that he didn't have a girlfriend. I've read his 160 page manifesto and religion plays no part in it.

People who want to hurt people are endlessly inventive in finding reasons that mean it's Not Their Fault, They Were Driven To It. Rodgers genuinely believed a shag would have cured him of his murderous rage. I doubt it. Religion is just the quickest easiest excuse within reach for lazy minds.

Just read in the Guardian an intelligence statement that one of the main aims of ISIS and Al Qaeda is to divide western Muslims from the rest of Western society. Such anti-Muslim feeling as we see here is exactly what they want. Let's not play into the hands of terrorists by refusing to understand, visit with and listen to our Muslim neighbours, hey?

And I do wonder if part of the agenda in the Paris attacks is make Europe close the borders to refugees as Europe will now quite understandably be very wary of letting people in.

My 13 year old has woken up this morning to the news from Paris and declared that the terrorists aren't Muslims because real Muslims don't kill people. We live in rural Somerset so hardly an enlightened area, if more people thought like him maybe things might start to change a little. My Grandfather lived in Turkey during WW2 as part of a radar team. The Islam that he taught me about as a child bears no relation to what the press shows us today.

Hello Melvali, I am very interested to hear more from your perspective. Are you female? What is your experience of and attitude to head covering?

It has very little to do with the religion. I can't get my head around (of many things) why if history (artifacts) are so terrible and must be destroyed, why is the black market full of items looted by these people? Where is it written that you can kill another human being (isn't there something about killing one person and you kill mankind), having slaves, rape, forced conversion?

It is a very bastardised version of a religion that suits their violent purposes - if God says your leader is right, then you can't really question them can you? There's not so self righteous than an ignorant, stupid religious nutter.

Hi justgivemetwominutes

Yeah I am female and yes I cover my head. My mum didn't. I prayed the 5 time prayers from a youngish age (again my parents didn't) and that eventually led me to adopting the hijab full time. It was my own choice completely. My view is that I don't want men gawping at me or judging me for my beauty (not saying I'm drop dead) and the hijab acts as a 'protective shell' if you like as it adds to your modesty. I don't wear skirts or show my cleavage. I am British born and a university of Edinburgh graduate. I work for one of the big 4 investment banks. I don't believe in enforcing it on anyone at all but I do believe we should be able to express ourselves.

How great it is that lots of you are basically saying, 'no way would I/my child go on a trip where they have to cover their head etc etc'.

What complaints do you make about parents who aren't keen on their children having to go through 2 weeks of Christmas rehearsals and songs where they are being totally fed the Christian stories of Jesus and Mary and so on when they don't believe it to be the truth?

Lots of Muslims (and other non Christians) let their children take part in the mass Christmas events at school along with Easter even though they may squirm in their seats at them singing some of the songs and not feel too great about them taking part in a nativity that they don't believe is the truth. They do this year after year and have to keep telling their children that its what some people believe, but we have different beliefs. The thing is, once you've heard the stories a number of times and sang the songs so many times no doubt it begins to stick in your head.

I find your complaint about wearing a scarf for a couple of hours pretty petty in comparison really. Noone is asking your child to take part in praying, no one is trying to indoctrinate her. I imagine with your attitude towards Islam you will have already taught your daughter to treat Muslims with suspicion. How sad.

MrsMolesworth: Deogratias actually said:"Okay you'd get an occasional loan wolf Brevik". So you are misrepresenting her argument.

The idea that everyone who takes part in ideologically motivated violence is merely using that ideology as an excuse for their inherent bloodlust is naive. Humans - especially idealistic young humans - really can be persuaded that the goal of fulfilling a special destiny by creating utopia on earth, or of fulfilling a special destiny by carrying out God's will for humanity, provides moral justification for horrific acts. This applies to extreme political ideology as well as to extreme religious ideology.

The Atlantic magazine recently published an illuminating article about this as it relates to Isis: www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

Faith is a personal thing. For me Islam is my way of life my way of thinking and acting. I try and treat people well, show politeness and generally be a good human. When I was 21 I was diagnosed very suddenly with pancreatic cancer. It was my faith and inner strength that got me through that. Why can't everyone just do what they want whilst respecting one another? All this terrorism in the news is heartbreaking. Firstly for all the innocent lives lost and secondly for the religion being tarnished by a few extremists. Everything can be taken out of context. We all need to think with a clear head and understand one another better, support each other to try and get rid of these extremists. The more hatred for these people just creates more extremists and more terrible incidents

had all these parents brought their children up atheist there would be none of this, no shooting in Paris, none of it. Okay you'd get an occasional loan woolf Brevik (although even he had Islam at the heart of his issues to be fiar) but you wouldn't have all the violence we now see.

Just spotted this idiocy.

Someone just asked me for my opinion and I posted a response. Both of these posts seem to have been deleted??

Sorry just seen the posts. The thread is moving too fast!!!

Justgivemetwominutes

I would like to add that what about these page 3 girls? Men gawping and masturbating over them? To me, that is not respecting women, that is derogatory. Why with flash cars do we always see beautiful women standing beside them (in posters etc?) casinos with half dressed women parading around? Isn't all this sexist??

I can see your posts.

I don't think that covering up is the answer. It's like saying if you don't want a dog to bite you, don't muzzle the dog but wear a suit of armour. And Muslim men aren't above a bit of groping, innuendo and leering. Life isnt all roses in a theocracy.