to not send my girls on this school trip because of my beliefs

[JustGiveMeTwoMinutes]

The trip is to a mosque and the girls (year 3 and 4) have to cover their heads with a scarf, the boys don't have to.

Just to be clear about where I am coming from, this is about a specific practice which I believe is discriminatory and therefore disagree with. I would not choose myself to enter a building that I could only enter if I wore particular clothes but where that requirement was limited to one gender or one group defined by arbitrary characteristics. I would be happy to cover my head as a sign of respect/tradition if everyone entering the building was required to do so.

They can make their own decision on this when they are adults.

Am I being ridiculous and petty or is it reasonable to stand up for my view that just because a custom is part of a religion that does not excuse it being discriminatory?

But there is a far larger problem in schools than is caused by one trip to a very marginally more sexist place than the school is

no this isnt true.

If you allow your boys to swim topless, and your girls wear dresses and your husband doesn't own heels you are being a hypocrite.

Don't dress up your racism as a crusade for feminism.

How is it hypocritical?

Hijab and other head and body coverings are not clothing per se; they are specifically to 'show respect for God/Allah', and for modesty purposes. Why do these rules and requirements only apply to women?

While I can understand your take on it, I would still let my girls go. i have strong beliefs about certain issues, but this is an educational visit, and I think it's healthy for kids to be exposed to many different experiences.

In the west and most non-Islamic countries we consider breasts to be a sexual/alluring part of the body and displaying them is considered something that should only be shown in private, intimate situations.

Women's hair in Islam is viewed in a similar way, and flaunting it is considered to be deliberately alluring and sexually provocative. Except that it isn't, really is it? Because as well as being seen by your husband it's also okay to show it (and the rest of your clothed but not 'covered' body) to your father and brothers, and to any female company you keep, related or otherwise - just not to any other men. That's the weird part.

If showing hair is considered in the same category as showing too much breast or cleavage, or wearing too short a skirt, then why is it okay in certain company but not others, if overall modesty is your aim? We non-Muslim women don't go around to each other's houses and say 'Thank God the men have all gone out, so we can all strip down to our bra and knickers' yet it seems that that is exactly what many Muslim women do, ie., uncover (or wear very alluring and sexy evening dresses at weddings for example) in the the presence of female only company.

It seems that the Islamic concept of modesty is (for many) something that needs to apply only when non-related men are around. That's the bit i find hard to take seriously when we are told it's all about 'modesty'. It all comes back to the non-related men.

I understand where the OP is coming from completely, yet it is a learning experience, granted.

BUT, my issue is the teachers/school won't enforce (like mum at home is), that whilst we must respect other religions, singling women out to cover their heads is wrong and not fair.

Maybe go with them and learn about a different religion? The girls will have to cover their hair because it's part of that faith.

Traditionally women should cover their hair when entering a Christian church, would this also be a problem? Or if it was a trip to a synagogue and the boys had to wear a kippah?

Fratelli - have you actually RTFT?

The difference between covering your head in a Catholic Church years ago is that you were requested, where was it seems more forceful to cover your head in a Mosque and perhaps you wouldn't even be allowed in it you didn't.

I haven't read thread. However I would reframe the problem.
I am a strong feminist and the Islamist religion fascinates me.
In my early 20s I travelled around the Middle East spending time in Iran, Pakinstan, Syria and Jordan, Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

I covered up because I wanted to understand why a billion + people on this planet followed this religion - I was learning.

I loathe misogyny but I still want my daughters to REALLY understand ISLAM and if that means covering up in the mosques, so be it. To understand OUR freedoms we have to understand how other people are not free.

I don't want them to be too scared to go in mosques or to think about Islam because of its 'treatment' of women. I wasn't them to want to educate themselves.

There are a huge amount of myths around Islam - you have to get close to the culture to understand.

*i want them to educate themselves

Well said Flange, I think that's where a lot of the problems in the world stem from, lots of people have little or no experience of travel and different cultures.

Do schools with almost exclusively Muslim intake arrange school trips to churches to 'educate' their pupils about Christianity I wonder?

Again, unless you are going to marvel at an especially fabulous building or the artworks within it, I fail to see why it is necessary or helpful to visit a place of worship to better understand the religion.

Can anyone enlighten me? What happens on these trips that imparts knowledge or understanding that can't be got from teaching in class?

YANBU. I think I would feel uncomfortable doing it myself because of the politicisation involved -- the aggressive focus on women's attire in many prominent Islamic streams of thought is part of the general political radicalisation of Islam. When I was younger, Muslim women in the west generally did not wear the currently important trappings of their religion. If you look up photos of Cairo or even Afghanistan or Turkey in the 50s to the 70s you will see that a lot has changed. Covering of women is not a fixed and immutable 'belief'. I would not feel good about pandering to the particular winds of change that have blown.

Conversely, I would have no issue with covering my head in an Orthodox church. Head covering there is not an expression of a political statement.

I have a big issue with school uniform and I am very happy that my DCs attend/ed a school with none.

I don't think you need to go to a mosque in order to understand any facet of Muslim religious practices, except perhaps how it feels to have to cover your head if you are a girl while your male classmates may well only have to remove their shoes.

I don't think you can study 'Islam' very well by visiting just one mosque anyway. It is not a centralised religion and what you see in a single mosque would not explain much about the many strands of Islamic thought in the world today or why different sects of Muslims seem to hate each other to the point of open warfare. Your girls could study Islam via reading.

In other words, I don't think this trip has much educational value.

Completely agree with all of that Math

Leave they should be arranging a trips too.

They should or they do?

And what's the parental consent to attend like? Very curious to know.

Hopefully someone will care to answer.

I've not read all the post but I've read enough. I'm a Muslim and I would just like to say many of you have very ignorant views on Islam. Don't diss it if you haven't studied it. A lot of what you hear and see on the news isn't actually the true religion. The misconceptions are vast about how women are treated. Without getting into a whole new debate, Islam was the first religion to grant the right for the women asking for divorce if she was unhappy, or grant the right to inheritance , long before it was accepted in society. Sorry for those of you who have had bad experiences with visiting mosques - as every religion, some folk do get it bloody wrong and it's ashame it tarnishes the whole religion.

I'm not holding my breath Vulcan

A lot of the time it depends on how close the centres of worship for other religions are to the school organising the trips. Coach costs can be prohibitive, so you can't really draw conclusions based on the number of physical visits undertaken by a faith school.

Send them wearing these?

Well you wouldn't have to go far to find a church Iris

Or indeed a mosque, these days.

My daughter's year 4 class visited the local mosque. It was shortly after the attack on tourists in Tunisia and a few parents felt uneasy about it. Two of them did not give consent and my daughter reported that they were made to feel guilty by their teacher for not going - completely unacceptable.
My daughter said the mosque had no female toilets. Unbelievable.