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AIBU?

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Original poster

to not send my girls on this school trip because of my beliefs

942 replies

JustGiveMeTwoMinutes · 13/11/2015 16:39

The trip is to a mosque and the girls (year 3 and 4) have to cover their heads with a scarf, the boys don't have to.

Just to be clear about where I am coming from, this is about a specific practice which I believe is discriminatory and therefore disagree with. I would not choose myself to enter a building that I could only enter if I wore particular clothes but where that requirement was limited to one gender or one group defined by arbitrary characteristics. I would be happy to cover my head as a sign of respect/tradition if everyone entering the building was required to do so.

They can make their own decision on this when they are adults.

Am I being ridiculous and petty or is it reasonable to stand up for my view that just because a custom is part of a religion that does not excuse it being discriminatory?

OP posts:
INickedAName · 13/11/2015 20:42

Have the girls even been asked how they feel about covering up?

Dd and I have talked about this before and At 9 she would fully understand it's because she's a girl, she would think that's unfair and would be annoyed that the school would be kind of saying sometimes it's ok to treat girls as lesser, and the boys in her class will also be seeing that sometimes it's ok too. She said she wouldn't want to go, because she would think by wearing a scarf, she's agreeing. She said she'd ask if we could try visit another mosque on her own time which wouldn't require her to wear a scarf and also would use the internet to find out more about different religions. I'd feel uncomfortable making her go, like I'd be disregading her autonomy in order to please/show respect to others.

The youngest girls are 7? I would imagine they would notice the are expected to cover hair and the boys not. I'd want to know how the teachers will explain to the class why only the girls need to cover their hair, how are they going to teach the class that girls are equal to boys, while having the girls practise something that says otherwise? I'm not sure the school would be able to explain it in a way that says it's not because they girls, and it's not because showing hair is wrong.

whataloadoftoshasusual · 13/11/2015 20:43

Olivepip - women covering their head has nothing to do with inflaming the passion of men - that is nonsense, it is about showing your respect to God.
Men also wear a small cap in the same way.
You have your facts quite wrong.

lorelei9 · 13/11/2015 20:44

ohtheholidays "Like another poster has said how many muslim women do some of you really know?"

Loads. I fail to see why this matters. People practice their faith in very different ways. But what's any Muslim friend, hijab wearing or not, got to do with the OP?

My Muslim friends know how I feel about gender issues in their faith. I would still say "I'm not going to let my child go into a mosque where she is only allowed admittance by following a different dress code to the men".

I do think the OP should check with the mosque, but we should approach the question as it was asked, surely? Some mosques would be fine with it, I'm sure. Some wouldn't. At present, the OP's dilemma is that the girls have been asked to cover their heads. That's the fact we are working with.

cleaty · 13/11/2015 20:44

Until fairly recently Mormons officially believed black people were lesser than white people. Should we have respected that belief?

Many people support Islamic misogyny because they are racist. Would you accept your girls being taught that they are lesser than boys? So why is it okay for other girls to be taught that?

hampsterdam · 13/11/2015 20:46

I live in a very multicultural city, I see a lot more women 'showing their respect for god' than I see men wearing skull caps. Just saying.

Jux · 13/11/2015 20:46

You could always coach them to ask questions "why do I have to wear this horrible thing when my friend Johnny doesn't?" etc, but they're possibly a little young for that.

hampsterdam · 13/11/2015 20:48

And why should young children be expected to show respect for a god they don't believe in?

justgivemeamo · 13/11/2015 20:49

SOME muslim women choose to cover their heads as they feel that is what THEY want to do - some don't - also THEIR choice

Can I ask how much freedom the children in families who have practicing parents have to either take or disregard the religion?

My Mother was Catholic, and took me to church but I was never forced or encouraged to carry on the faith. Her family never bat an eye at the cousins who have not carried on the faith.

Do these girls have freedom within their communities and families to choose not to carry on being a muslim.

cleaty · 13/11/2015 20:50

Olivepip attended a Muslim school. Why do you dismiss what she says?

lorelei9 · 13/11/2015 20:52

justgivemeamo "Do these girls have freedom within their communities and families to choose not to carry on being a muslim."

like any other religion, it's not officially mandated, it's about how reasonable the parents and family are, surely!

whataloadoftoshasusual · 13/11/2015 20:52

hampsterdam - and they have made that decision for themselves - so what does that have to do with anyone else.

Like other posters have mentioned, it is unlikely that this has actually come from the mosque but more likely from the school trying to be PC.

Again I don't see why it is so horrifying if someone did choose to cover their head - its no different that girls covering themselves differently from boys in clothing anyway. They seem to survive without being damaged in P.e. , swimming and general life.

cleaty · 13/11/2015 20:52

If you are raised a Muslim and leave the faith, you are massively looked down on.

hampsterdam · 13/11/2015 20:53

Muslim women having the choice is completely irrelevant to the point of the thread. These young children are not bing given that choice.
I think maybe the school have gone too pc and it's not the mosque. And if it is the mosque a pp suggestion of finding a different one to visit would be a good compromise.

hefzi · 13/11/2015 20:54

hampsterdam it's not about showing respect to a god they don't believe in - it's about respecting someone else's tradition and showing respect to that.

It's fine not to believe in god - though some of the militant atheist superiority shown on MN is starting to make me think otherwise ;-) - but it's simple good manners to show respect to other humans.

hefzi · 13/11/2015 20:55

Although, hamp I see we are fundamentally in agreement here - it's bloody outrageous young girls like this are being expected to cover their hair: hence my comment about searching questions to the school!

cleaty · 13/11/2015 20:55

Don't underestimate the community pressure on people to conform around wearing the Hijab or similar. One woman I spoke to said that parents would not let their children visit her home, or have her child for play dates, because as a Muslim she refused to wear the Hijab. When there is a lot of pressure, most people just go along with what is required.

justgivemeamo · 13/11/2015 20:57

Muslim women having the choice is completely irrelevant to the point of the thread

But do they have a choice? Are they raised in liberal house holds, with exposure to the faith but no pressure to carry it on, like most DC nowadays in catholic and C of E families? If not then you can never truly say these Muslim women do choose to wear the veil or not.

hampsterdam · 13/11/2015 20:57

If they chose then I have no problem with it. But these children are not being given a choice. And really how much choice can anyone have when they have been indoctrinated into their parents religion from birth. That's all religions I'm talking about not just Islam.

I'm sure if you Google apostates you can find out what can happen to people who decide to leave religion.

bluebolt · 13/11/2015 20:59

Reading this thread has been quite enlightening, but what has really stuck in my throat is the description of children as being pre pubescent or not (as if it makes a difference). I cannot imagine any other topic where this would be perceived as being justified.

whataloadoftoshasusual · 13/11/2015 20:59

nobody can force you to believe anything you don't want to.

You either believe or you don't .
I am sure Muslim parents would be as sad as any other parent of a faith who's child left that religion.

and I am sure there as as many nutty muslim parents who would try and force religion just as there are nutty 'other faith' parents would force religion too.

I don't dismiss OlivePip - I cannot recognise anything similar in her experience of religion as mine.
as for head covering - it is respect to God for both men and women so unfortunately someone has misled her.

justgivemeamo · 13/11/2015 20:59

it's about respecting someone else's tradition and showing respect to that

even if that tradition practices subjugation of women?

hampsterdam · 13/11/2015 21:02

Ok so respecting other people's beliefs. Showing respect to the belief that women and girls need to cover them self's for what reason?
What about respect for the culture of the children visiting ie it's not their culture to cover?

TheDowagerCuntess · 13/11/2015 21:03

I'd be amazed if three and four-year-olds were actually expected to cover their heads. Completely amazed.

If indeed they are, then that would be a very easy decision for me to make - my DD wouldn't be going. It would be a bad enough message to send to her, let alone to the boys going on the trip.

Either hijab / head-covering is freely chosen, or it isn't. If, as so many say, it's a free choice, then surely this is a complete storm in a tea-cup and the non-practicing three-year-old is free to go in uncovered, just as her male classmates would.

cleaty · 13/11/2015 21:04

In 23 Muslim countries it is a criminal offence to leave the Islam faith. That is not simply disappointment of their parents. Traditionally apostasy was punishable by death.

DeoGratias · 13/11/2015 21:09

Loads of the little primary school girls near my house cover their heads at school. It's appalling and restricts them and their view and it's hot and their brothers instead have total freedom. It is very very sexist and equality for men and women should trump religion.

if they think primary age boys cannot control themselves in the presence of little girls let the boys cover up not the girls. Let the boys be restricted.