to not send my girls on this school trip because of my beliefs

[JustGiveMeTwoMinutes]

The trip is to a mosque and the girls (year 3 and 4) have to cover their heads with a scarf, the boys don't have to.

Just to be clear about where I am coming from, this is about a specific practice which I believe is discriminatory and therefore disagree with. I would not choose myself to enter a building that I could only enter if I wore particular clothes but where that requirement was limited to one gender or one group defined by arbitrary characteristics. I would be happy to cover my head as a sign of respect/tradition if everyone entering the building was required to do so.

They can make their own decision on this when they are adults.

Am I being ridiculous and petty or is it reasonable to stand up for my view that just because a custom is part of a religion that does not excuse it being discriminatory?

or this version

OP YABU .in everyday life men and women dress differently,so can't see the big deal.if YOU don't agree with it then that's fine,but don't pretend that you're letting your DDs make up their own mind if you don't let them see and experience different cultures and religions with their own eyes.

ohyoubadkitten thats true it could be the school imposing these guidelines. i went for re in secondary also and we didnt have to wear anything although we werre told hy our teachers to wear modest clothing on the day but that was left up to us. I recall the teacher wearing a scarf loosely like the scottish widow i thought it was hilarious but veryrespectful of her no one asked her to do it at the doors.

i think visits like these are important so we understand and respect ppl from all walks of life it has nothing to do with indoctrinising.

On that note ive nevrr seen a synagogue let alone been inside one,my city doesnt have one.

troubleatmillcock arent all isms a form of control inuding secularism and atheism after all ull live ur life by a set of values pass them on to ur kids so youve indoctrinated them too without even realising. Just ppl following an organised religion admit to this other isms pretend they have no such rules or indoctrinisation but just free will, which is a fallacy.

OH if your raising dc to be happy with gender segregation thats your business.

I'm quite shocked by some of the ignorance on this thread, whether that it's customary for males to remove their hats in church (just as they would do in a building, anyway - except nowadays, with constant baseball-cap wearing, this isn't always honoured) or that Judaism only requires married women (of whatever age) to cover their hair.

It's a popular trope with Western feminists that for Muslim women to cover their hair is a sign of subjugation by men, but how many Muslim women do you know? (As in, know as friends, not have spoken to at some event connected with either being an ex-Muslim or with a feminist slant?) I know a lot of feisty women from a number of nationalities who cover their hair for a range of reasons, from because it's a religious obligation to a feeling of identity, and wanting to be outwardly identifiable as a Muslim. I don't know a single woman who covers because her husband tells her to - if that was important to you in a woman, why would you marry one in the first place who didn't cover? I do however, know a number of women who cover their hair DESPITE their husbands asking them not to.

Muslim women have agency just as Anglican women do, you know. Some women live under patriarchal systems that are oppressive enough without non-Muslim, Western women trying to appropriate them to reinforce their stereotypical notions of Islamic womenhood through assuming to speak for these women and what is - like it or not - very often their choice. It's patronising in the extreme to remove the notion of agency from these "poor, oppressed women, subjugated to the will of men", no matter how well meaning.

same old nonsense as usual
OP - don't send your girls if you don't want to -
but can we get over the idea that muslim women are some downtrodden people requiring saving from themselves.
SOME muslim women choose to cover their heads as they feel that is what THEY want to do - some don't - also THEIR choice.

It was not all that long ago that nuns wore a habit no-one felt that girls would be ruined at the sight of them.

And lets be honest its not like girls and boys are gender neutral everywhere else - you can't as a women go around topless as you would be arrested, but you can as a man, we send our girls in a swimming costume to the pool but boys go in trunks. It is a different degree of what is appropriate for that for different people. Its not really that hard, lets just live and let live, instead of thinking that WE know what is best for other people.

troublemillcock what fear? The fear tabloids have told u about? Only dread i had was wking past a woman evry morning for 1 year or more shoutibg at me to take my headscarf off. i never wore the hijab until i was 26 my parents were against it but they werent interested in religion so it was to be expected. So many young girls and women wear it because they want to. Or they have been raised in familiew where it is the norm. Those who dont want to or are forced to u will find it is a culture issue usually backward south asian beliefs, but it so easily potted together with religion. As much as the hijab is obligatory coersion is not permitted at all, anyone who professes this is doolally tell them to show u the textual evidence there is none.

YANBU OP if you feel so strongly about it. As a teacher teaching in a very multicultural area we try to teach our children about the main religions that are represented in or school - Christian, Hindu, Muslim, and Jewish and the lovely thing is that they are genuinely interested in other people's beliefs. They will be growing up in this society so it is in their interests to try and understand it.

Personally I find some of the beliefs pretty abhorrent but I also believe in freedom of religion and in being courteous to the people with whom we co-exist.

Amummy, where women's rights clash with religious beliefs, it is invariably women who come off worse.

Women in Northern Ireland for example cannot access abortion. These are UK citizens being denied autonomy over their bodies.

Hefzi - I have no problem with women choosing to wear hijab - the second link I gave for the 'unwrapped sweet' thing is to a blog form a very assertive independent feminist hijabi blogger. And yes I do really have close friendships with muslim women - I don't agree with the 'look of fear' that apparently goes with hijab (ha ha as in Nadia on Masterchef?).

But that doesn't mean I want my young dd to experience a segregational act and cover herself up while boys do not. She is hardly doing it to show her identity as a muslim, as a visiting young girl, is she?

"SOME muslim women choose to cover their heads as they feel that is what THEY want to do - some don't - also THEIR choice."

Well, exactly, so why does a visiting 7 year old not have a choice? But is told she must cover her head?

Yanbu
That sounds like a ridiculous school trip

Precisely Brenda

And why does tolerance and acceptance of other cultures only work one way in this instance?

ohtheholidays "I think standing up against someone elses traditions and faiths is very disrespectful"

but the girls not attending is not the same as the girls barging in and insisting they be allowed to have their heads uncovered. They simply wouldn't be there. That isn't disrespectful. They have been invited to take part in something and they have declined the invitation. If I was invited to a religious event, I would decline the invite and thank the inviter and say "hope it goes well". Happened fairly often in my teen years due to parents being religious and me not being religious.

Brenda - that is alarming! Thanks for the links.

I understand perfectly well that muslim women choose to cover or not. Kind of missing the point of the thread seeing as these are young children and not muslim?
People bringing their kids up to have 'the upmost respect' for other people's religions? Well each to their own but I really can't respect the belief in imaginary friends who tell you what you can eat or wear or do in the bedroom.
As for respecting traditions, fgm is a tradition in some cultures should that be respected? Paying a dowry is a tradition, arranged marriage? Are these things ok as traditions?

YABU - I visited many mosques when I was school age and I followed the rules. I also visited temples and followed rules out of respect for those who worship there. I valued the experiences and I learnt a lot from them. Indoctrinated, I am not. Scarred by the experience? absolutely not. How ridiculous.

The leaves are turning ...come on there is more to most religions than oppression and sexism (just as there is more to the Catholic Church than child abuse)

Believe it or not the people we share this earth with do not all believe the same as you and they are just as valuable human beings. Encouraging our children to learn and talk about people differences has to be a better way than avoidance.

To whoever asked me who said Muslim women are subordinate and the men are abusive fundamentalists, just read this thread, there's a fairly clear theme.

Brenda - and will the same year 7 girl be wearing swimming trunks instead of a swimming costume that covers her top half ?
she is also not given that choice but must conform.
(that probably happens more often than a one off trip to a mosque.)

but like i said, its up to the OP to remove her child from the trip and any swimming.

The idea of showing respect that someone is religion was given to me along with a private view that some practices were wrong! My own family left religion as they found many of the coreligionists hypocritical.

It is about getting along together and not having religious strife.

You can't argue logic with faith.

The idea that we should respect traditions simply because it affects other women and not us, is frankly racist. And there are Muslim and ex Muslim women who fight against the Hijab. We are sold by the media the idea that Islam is a monolith, it is not. Look at the Christian church and the range of beliefs from C of E, to fundamentalists to catholics. It is the same in Islam. Islam is practised differently by different sects.

Like another poster has said how many muslim women do some of you really know?

See myself and my children all have close friends that are Muslim,also have friends that are jewish,hindu,sikh,rastafarian,CofE,catholic.

Myself,DH and all 5 of our DC know a lot about other religions I think understanding and respect of other people's beliefs and different ways of life are the best way to stop missunderstandings and hatred.

Somethings that some have wrote on here sound very xenophobic!

At a few years older than the OPs DDs, I had the 'exciting learning opportunity' to attend a Muslim school.

I covered everything, not just my head.

Here are some of the 'interesting' things I learned that 'made me a feminist'

• some people believe if you are 9 years old and your hair is uncovered, it is acceptable to be beaten on the skull and shoulders by a grown man
• that if books contain stories about women who live alone and refuse marriage, they are burned
• that a man's sexuality and ability to control it or not is the responsibility of girls as young as 10

I could go on but this entire thread has been really difficult to read.

I'm interested to know how anyone can feel that sending their DD to a place where she must be covered or risks inflaming the passion of a grown man can be anything other than a confusing and frightening idea.

Dressing it up as educational? Shame on you.

My children learned about world religions without being forced to pander to sexual discrimination in a country that actually legislates against it.

Brenda, no - I am totally with you that 7 year olds should not be asked to cover their heads: especially when they are allowed to enter this mosque without covering their hair. I understand, as a non-Muslim, that it is expected for me to cover my hair (as a 40 something woman) and remove my shoes if I wish to enter a mosque - just like in some churches in Malta, Syria and Spain, I have been expected to cover my hair to enter, out of respect for their tradition.

I am concerned, though, in this case, why children so young are being told to cover their hair. I strongly, strongly suspect that this is someone at school who has made the dictat, not someone at the mosque - either someone who is fundamentally ignorant about the practice, or someone who is on eggshells trying to be PC and is convinced that this will somehow show "extra" respect or something

Do you remember that case a few years ago - in Birmingham, maybe? - where a local health authority took the decision to remove Bibles from the hospital's beside lockers, because they could be offensive to Muslims? A deputation of local imams went to the authorities and pointed out that the Bible wasn't offensive to Muslims, and indeed, is respected and holy (though not, of course, as holy as the Qu'ran). It turned out that there hadn't been any complaints - they were just worried there could be, but acted through over-PC ignorance: I would bet that's what's happening with this trip.

If I was the OP, I wouldn't be banning my girls from attending, but I'd be asking some very, very searching questions of the school as to why they are asking pre-pubescent girls to cover their hair when this is not something that Islam requires...

Oh the holidays you respect other people's beliefs regardless of what they are? That's stupid. I respect that people have the right to freedom of religion,or doesn't mean I respect those beliefs. Big deference. I know people from lots of religions. I can't see how knowing muslim women is relavent to the point of the thread.
I find the ideas behind women and girls being covered offensive to men also.