to not send my girls on this school trip because of my beliefs

[JustGiveMeTwoMinutes]

The trip is to a mosque and the girls (year 3 and 4) have to cover their heads with a scarf, the boys don't have to.

Just to be clear about where I am coming from, this is about a specific practice which I believe is discriminatory and therefore disagree with. I would not choose myself to enter a building that I could only enter if I wore particular clothes but where that requirement was limited to one gender or one group defined by arbitrary characteristics. I would be happy to cover my head as a sign of respect/tradition if everyone entering the building was required to do so.

They can make their own decision on this when they are adults.

Am I being ridiculous and petty or is it reasonable to stand up for my view that just because a custom is part of a religion that does not excuse it being discriminatory?

YABU, it is an educational experience and to see other cultures.
You can't stop your children experiencing this because you don't like it.
What will they do instead?

My daughter (aged 6!) was told to to cover her head to visit the mosque and the Sikh temple.

One difference with Sikh temples is that everyone is asked to cover their head. Young, old, men and women. So it isn't a gendered (or age) thing.

My feeling is that you can be against all these gendered rules, but if you insist on sticking to them everywhere that means that you won't be able to see a lot of stuff. You can tell your DD it's all rubbish, but you need to follow the rules when you go somewhere.

Involve the boys in a discussion about the rights of girls/women and cultural differences. Not about whether or not Muslim men wear traditional clothes!

Jeez I just mean get all children taking about and discussing difference! Not avoiding it or fearing it.

I just fundamentally disagree with the perception that all Muslim women are subordinate, stupid men please-ers! And that all Muslim men are abusive fundamentalists. But then I'm basing my beliefs on experience and relationships rather than what the British tabloids suggest.

katarzynana - Have you missed the strong criticism of the misogyny of other religions? Most on this thread are not bashing Muslims. They are like me and simply not willing to accept misogyny in the name of religion.

'Involve the boys in a discussion about the rights of girls/women and cultural differences. Not about whether or not Muslim men wear traditional clothes!
Jeez I just mean get all children taking about and discussing difference! Not avoiding it or fearing it.

I just fundamentally disagree with the perception that all Muslim women are subordinate, stupid men please-ers! And that all Muslim men are abusive fundamentalists. But then I'm basing my beliefs on experience and relationships rather than what the British tabloids suggest.'

Who is going to involve the boys in that discussion? Because it certainly won't be the teachers. They would never ever question Muslim beliefs (or any religious belief) in class.

Who said Muslim women are subordinate stupid men pleasers? Who said Muslim men are abusive fundamentalists?

We are criticising the institution of religion. Muslims are individuals like any other group of people. Some are lovely, some are not. And many of us do know and care about individual Muslims. Just because we recognise how misogynistic Islam is, does not mean that we are ignorant.

No, I wouldn't agree to this, whatever religion it was.

Completely unnecessary for the school to have found a mosque that requires small girls to cover their hair. DCs went on school trips to mosques many times - happy for them all to remove shoes in the mosque and temple etc. But no way would I want my dd to be made to cover her hair while boys are not. And especially after that bloody stupid 'sweet' campaign that implies that 'uncovered' = 'dirty.

In fact I wouldn't want DS to be party to his friends having to cover up. So I wouldn't let a boy go, either.

Why should a dd be subjected to a sexist misogynistic practice in order to 'feel it'? She can decide that for herself if she wants to visit a mosque in the future. The school has no business imposing it as a learning lesson while she is so small.

I would be happy for them to attend an alternative mosque where children do not have to cover themselves.

Re: Sikh temple - I didn't know that and it's good that everyone has to cover up. They actually loved the Sikh temple as they were given fruit and Indian sweets. Also the Hindu temple at Divali. These trips can be a great experience and a way for the children to share their cultural/ religious backgrounds with each other.

It's funny though... We live in the west of Scotland and my children attend non denominational school. They havent yet visited a catholic nor Protestant church.

People go along with beliefs that disadvantage them all the time. In extreme cases they walk blindly to their own doom. It's something humans are prone to. There is a choice to be made though, between being the person who just accepts what they're told and being the person who says 'hang on a minute, what's going here?'

Everyone likes to think they would be the one to say 'this isn't right' but when push comes to shove most people just put their heads down and carry on walking.

A boy who visits a church - even to admire the artworks in it - will be expected to uncover his head. If he visits a synagogue he must cover it and will be lent a skullcap if necessary (they keep some spare for the worshipper who forgets to put one in his pocket). It's no big deal. YABU.

I have been in many Hindu temples with my Hindu MIL and whist we have all removed shoes and not worn anything leather, I have never once been asked to cover my head. She doesn't, either.

Nice of you to tell women misogyny is no big deal Andrew. What would we do without you.

A boy visiting a Church of Scotland won't be expected to uncover his head - which church do you mean?

I wouldn't send them.

The scarf is a symbol of subjugation and control of females, not something I'm particularly in favor of.

Never, ever ever.

Teaching girls to be subservient and meek isn't on my list of educational must-haves to be honest.

cailindana I said nothing of the sort and would say nothing of the sort. The point is that every religion has some weird customs - and some affect males and some females.

I don't see it as misogynistic or misandrist to expect visitors to comply with these trivial requests - and I think it is beneficial for children to learn about cultures and religions other than their own, which involves a bit of compliance. You're going into somebody else's house.

And would the OP's daughters not feel left out if they had to miss the trip?

No no the children were not asked to cover up At the Hindu temple.

The Hindu temple was 'cool' apparently.

I have been in a lot of churches. Not one has said that boys and men have to uncover their heads.

YABU - you need to get a grip. You are making a stupid fuss over nothing. They want your daughters to wear a headscarf to visit a mosque - it's no big deal. It's easier to have a blanket request like this, rather than go into detail. They're not being asked to convert, just to conform to this one rule. If the teacher is worth her salt, she'll discuss all the rubbish behind such a rule when they get back to school.

I expect its the school imposing restrictions that the Imam wouldn't expect from school children. When I've been on mosque visits, not only did the girls not have to cover their hair, but the adults didnt have to either. We all had to take shoes off and that was it.

How can we all learn to live with each other if we don't allow our children to learn about each other?

it's not just islam, or catholicism, many christian denominations require women to cover their heads including the one i was raised in.

op i think yanbu to find this offensive and discriminatory.

but i think ywbu to stop your dd going because it's an experience she will learn from. i' just explain beforehand that some people believe this but you don't and explain your view but it's also important she sees for herself. it won't do her long term damage.

SirChenjin I believe that in all Anglican and Catholic churches and most others in England males are expected to be bareheaded. If anyone knows otherwise I am happy to be corrected. Interesting about the Church of Scotland and thank you.

Ever asked a practising muslim mum or dad why their young girls wear scarves? To tell the world i am a muslim this is me take me as ur friend as u see me or dont.

Muslim girls are supposed to cover from puberty, and its actually obligatory for muslim parents to encourage their girls and boys to dress modestly before puberty in preparation and sinful on them if they do not. but any muslim parent knows if u tell a girl of 9-13 to cover after not even adopting a headscarf on a daily basis she will find it very hard socially if her friends arent muslim, or they are muslim but have more secular views.

I have had cousins who have tried because they wanted to but they were alienated by their so called friends so gave it up. others have hought sod it i dont need friends like that and continued to adopt it.If the girl had worn a scarf from a younger age her friends would still be her friends she would be accepted for who she is right from the start, these problems wouldnt have occurred. This is why young girls wear it and why its more prevalent in the west, because there are more difficulties taking on the hijab. In muslim countries this alienation from friends would not occur people understand it more and its considered the norm

One poster made the point that girls aged 3 visiting the mosque dont need to wear a scarf and i agree its not incumbent even on a muslim girl that age so why non muslims. That is a problem with the muslim individual organising the event, nothing in the religion that states basically babies must wear a scarf. I have a 3 yr old i never put a scarf on her for mosque visits it honestly never occurred to me.

'cailindana I said nothing of the sort and would say nothing of the sort. The point is that every religion has some weird customs - and some affect males and some females.'

Are you saying that in some religions men have to cover themselves because if they are uncovered they're considered a temptation to women?

Skull cap, headscarf, crucifix, whatever = no.

You will not indoctrinate me and tell me what to wear in the name of religion.

Just as Santa Clause doesn't tell me what to do, or the fairies outside the window.

Religion is a form of control.

Very effective for lots of people, stops you asking questions, misbehaving and coerces you into a life of guilt. Also a pretty good cushion for some.

Sorry for the rant - not really a fan!

They need to be allowed to go and make their own minds up.