to not send my girls on this school trip because of my beliefs

[JustGiveMeTwoMinutes]

The trip is to a mosque and the girls (year 3 and 4) have to cover their heads with a scarf, the boys don't have to.

Just to be clear about where I am coming from, this is about a specific practice which I believe is discriminatory and therefore disagree with. I would not choose myself to enter a building that I could only enter if I wore particular clothes but where that requirement was limited to one gender or one group defined by arbitrary characteristics. I would be happy to cover my head as a sign of respect/tradition if everyone entering the building was required to do so.

They can make their own decision on this when they are adults.

Am I being ridiculous and petty or is it reasonable to stand up for my view that just because a custom is part of a religion that does not excuse it being discriminatory?

And yes, this is a great teaching experience for the girls. Let them experience it.

Yeah - great idea. Let them experience being treated like lesser beings as they are female. Let the boys learn that it's ok to teat girls like this as they're considered lesser beings

Good point.

Whoa, whoa, whoa: I'd be asking the school why they are asking pre-pubescent children to cover their hair, when this is not a requirement for Muslims of the same age (you do see the whole competitive hijab thing: round me, it's toddlers with dummies and hijab that wind me up...). It sounds like one of those pre-emptive PC things.

Respect and tolerance for others is important, and I think your children ought to go and see the mosque, instead of just being told Islam is bad and discriminates against women etc: ignorance is not good either. But it is perfectly ridiculous to ask children of this age to cover, and no decent imam of a respectable mosque would encourage this.

(Would it bother you than males over 13 are asked to cover their heads to visit a synagogue? Would you therefore prevent your sons from going because women are not required to? If so, you are encouraging judgement from ignorance - if not, you have double-standards...)

I really don't think the school thought this trip through at all

I bet they have.

This exact thread comes up regularly actually.

Reading back a bit and getting increasingly annoyed.
It is in my opinion as ridiculous as other religions including the one I was brought up in.
But some of us speak out and object.And allah hhasn't come down and taken me out yet.
No way. No way. No way.

I don't scarf up. Neither does my muslim sister-in-law. And we certainly would not send our offspring on a trip that required them to do so at the age of 7-9. YANBU.

This scarfing thing is getting out of hand. It is supposed to be a personal choice and not imposed like this.

I had always thought synagogues require both women and men to cover their hair.

@Mummamayhem, in my experience, it is the other way round.

Women who know more about how much Muslim men hate them, are more likely to feel hatred than those who have never been confronted with that.

I never became a Christian because my parents left that decision to me, and I read the Bible. I read the Bible and all the misogyny in it, and that ended any inclination I could have had to join a Church. That could have ended differently if my only experience with Christianity had been a progressive teacher who focused on the New Testament and the things Jesus said and did.

Making girls experience misogyny (i.e. hatred of women) will not make them any more tolerant.
If you wish to reduce the likelihood that girls will hate Muslims ... then send them to a mosque that treats them with respect.

We went to a synagogue when I was in school, and they didn't impose orthodox ideas on how women should cover ourselves. (Nowadays, I know that the ultra-orthodox women cover their hair in much the same way Muslim women do) I suspect my feelings towards the Jewish religion might be quite different if we had been to an orthodox place.

Nobody has to respect other people's beliefs only their right to hold those beliefs.
I don't respect the belief that there's an invisible man in the sky that actually cares what people wear or do in their bedrooms. I respect and defend your right to believe whatever codswallop you want as long as it's not hurting anyone or being pushed on other people. In this case it is being pushed on very young children.
In the 21st century the ideas behind women having to cover up are just as offensive to men, most men can control the desire to have sex with a woman however lovely her hair, arms or ankles might be.

Depends on the synagogue cleaty but a lot of them do require both men and women to cover up, particularly orthodox ones.

We live in a society with many religions, we might disagree (I certainly do with most) but to prevent a school trip - not a religious practice (they are observing and listening) isn't making a stand for woman's rights, it's avoiding something your children will observe in their lives and might want to ask about...surely discussion is better here? Why can't the boys be as involved in the discussion? What about the traditional clothes Muslim men wear? Men don't appear to feel oppressed by this in the way non women do about Muslim women.

Hmmm...difficult one but my DC went to visit our local mosque and they were not required to do this by the mosque. They had to remove shoes but I was the mosque was not awkward at all for those children who didn't want to remove them. It was a tail a great visit, maybe because we live in a pretty well integrated area. If you go to the Vatican they do require you to be modestly dressed as in arms covered, if you visit temples in Bali etc similar. Is it not more about respect generally?

Most Muslim men in Britain do not wear traditional clothes. I live in an area with a very large Muslim population. It is common to see a man in jeans and a t-shirt and a woman in a hijab, kalwezhar, or another variety of clothes to cover up.

'In the 21st century the ideas behind women having to cover up are just as offensive to men, most men can control the desire to have sex with a woman however lovely her hair, arms or ankles might be.'

I think this is a very important point hampsterdam. Feminists are constantly accused of man-hating and yet it's not feminists who reckon men are animals who need to have temptation (ie women) covered up at all times because they can't be trusted. It's degrading to both sexes to think that they can't just interact with each other in a civil and respectful way, without the use of veils and segregation.

The boys are not being asked to wear the traditional muslim dress. If the girls are just observing and learning why so they need to cover?

Anyone who thinks the issue of covering up would be discussed at school is absolutely barking. At no point would a teacher dare to question muslim beliefs - any whiff of that and they'd be in serious trouble.

Is it just in Rome cathedrals you have to cover your arms? I didn't have to in Lourdes or Fatima?

Non women????

Steam leaving me now

In the Vatican you have to have your shoulders and your legs covered as far as your knees, plus no 'low cut' tops (although they don't really enforce that). They are strict about the covering to the knees for both men and women - DH had to go and buy new shorts as the ones he was wearing were too short. The Catholic church is full of weirdness like this- why would a loving god care if someone's thighs were on show??

To answer my own question, no god would give a shit about thighs, but the Catholic church cares a whole lot about thighs. Get a bunch of men, ban sex and all they can think of, all the time is sex. The catholic obsession with sexuality is really disgusting.

Yes if I remember rightly nobody could wear shorts in Fatima or have bare shoulders, but at least it applied to both women and men.

Ohhhh this is very difficult. I like teaching my children about different beliefs and promoting the idea that all religions are about the same thing.

But I really would resent the idea of them having to cover their heads.

I'd still send them in this case, as I think the positives of the trip outweigh the negatives...but I have no idea how I'd explain tolerance of alternative belief systems in a way that didn't condone sexism.

Asking little girls to cover their hair is extreme.

When I travelled in the middle east 20 years ago you never saw little girls with head covered.

Now it's presented as normal for Muslim girls.

My daughter (aged 6!) was told to to cover her head to visit the mosque and the Sikh temple.

It's a learning experience - at home we talked about head covering and raised the issue that the boys were not set any rules at all for going into these religious buildings.

My own opinion is that covering your head is not the worst thing if you are an adult and choose to do it.
But to make little children do it seems extreme.

I think yabu BUT you should stick to your beliefs but dont be duplicitous about it.I know in christianity women arent meant to enter church without headcoverings but this is now forgotten, cant be denied though. In judaism women cover their heads nuns do too. Sikh women do too and hindu women on entering temples,my point is OP i guess these religions dont discriminate, ur fine with those?, you can tolerate it for your child but something really irks you about islam and women covering???

Despite the insane logic its still up to you,but they wont be treated any differently in the mosque ur girls, it is an educational visit.

I recall going church and to the sikh gudwara when i was about that age. I didnt like wearing a scarf to get into the gudwara but that was because i didny wear one at all, but inever for one moment thought this is oppressive, it never occured to me, and i doubt it will occur to ur kids unless u put it in their heads,it did me no harm i actually enjoyed it, the food in the temple lol

Many of us who object to misogynistic religious practices don't dislike or feel negative towards the women who follow them.

It is one of the scary foibles of the human race that they will nod along happily to the most incredibly weird ideas as long as signals of authority are attached to it. Hence a bunch of men say women must cover up and everyone just nods. Eh? It's that sort of thinking that allows dictators to flourish. Think FFS! Think for yourself!