About being "proud of your roots"

[CleansingSurfaceWipe]

I was just idly reading about Dermot O'Leary being "extremely proud of his Irish roots" (his parents are from Ireland, I believe, though he grew up in England). It suddenly struck me how weird I think that whole concept is.
Is it not just as absurd as someone being "ashamed"of their "roots"? How can they be a cause for either pride or shame?

kittyoshea

For me it was nothing to do with politics. I found that a lot of assumptions were made, like that I had 7 brothers and sisters, that my mother was called Mary, that I was Catholic, on and on... All of the assumptions about Ireland are things that are looked down on by the British Establishment. So to be typically Irish is to be a bit looked down on in the UK. Not necessarily to a degree that will hold an Irish person back in the UK! Obviously not! But I think the default assumption is that all that encompasses being 'Irish' is a bit working class, a bit catholic, a bit rural, a bit 'fiery', there is a voice that wants to be heard no, I'm not ashamed, I'm not, because who we are is as good as who you are and the shorter way to express that is ''I'm proud''.

I'm not patriotic or jingoist at all! But I do bristle slightly and always did at any suggestion that my background or my family, my culture, my history, my education or my manners were in any way inferior.

Well I lived in London, it is probably more typical of a South of England mindset. Not everybody, so don't be offended if this doesn't apply to you. And, to be clear, I don't mean that people (neighbours, bosses) were unpleasant to me because I was Irish, far from it in fact. It's subtle. And it's not something that upset me, but it was there. It did exist.

I'd a French friend and it was assumed she hung out in galleries, that her parents talked politics over the dinner table, that her mother was elegant. All assumptions that are flattering. The assumptions that are made about Irish people aren't so flattering.

People DO get to know you as an individual, and quickly, so general assumptions aren't the be and end all. It is a little frustrating though and I do understand why Dermot O'Leary would say that he's not ashamed to be Irish. That's not what he said but I feel that that is really the point being made.

Well, I grew up in the SE of England, and certainly don't have that mindset. I'm now in Scotland - again, don't have that mindset.

I don't think it's helpful to attribute a particular mindset, belief, attitude, assumptions etc to a person because of where they live or come from (and that works both ways) - I think it's more helpful to think of the individual who exhibits those negative traits as being racist or bigoted.

Yes, if only that were true for everybody. However, some of the assumptions are so ingrained that they're not coming from bigoted people.

People think they know things. They think they know true things.

If you're not Irish in England, then you aren't really in a position to tell me that my observations are wrong!

On the flip side, I've lived in Spain too and I felt that a lot of positive attributes were attributed to me, my background, my childhood... Their perception of growing in up in Ireland was that I had been very fortunate.

I haven't told you your observations are wrong - point me to where I said that?

However - I stand by what I said. I don't think it's helpful to attribute a particular mindset, belief, attitude, assumptions etc to a person because of where they live or come from (and that works both ways) - I think it's more helpful to think of the individual who exhibits those negative traits as being racist or bigoted. If that bigotry is ingrained that that's a fault of the individual for whatever reason - it does not follow that because they come from Kent or Essex that they think that.

You don't believe in systemic discrimination then, SirChenjin?

Not amongst whole populations, no.

not amongst - in terms of

That sounds like an immensely privileged and blinkered thing to say.

Yes, that's probably because I'm from the SE and now live in Scotland - it's a curse we UKites with all our various backgrounds, cultures and heritages live with.

What would you call apartheid and Jim Crow laws, just to name two examples, if not discrimination (oppression actually) among whole populations?

Maud who are you calling blinkered? I'm with SirChen on this. Scarllett I don't agree with you at all but if we're talking of ingrained assumption it works both ways.Think about it. I actually find what you say offensive. Do you really believe that everyone you meet in England who is not irish has an inbuilt unconscious prejudice against the Irish?

WEll sirchenjin, They aren't bigoted. Their jokes comyou seemed disbelieving. AS cailindana said, otherwise very nice people do make jokes about potatoes, accents, expressions etc... e from an assumption that being Irish is a bit of a short straw. Some very 'pc' people made Irish jokes to my face!

The comment from the poster (pages back now) about Irish names, the problematic ones being working class, that just sums it up! eg, Conor, one of the high kings of Ireland, a name thousands of years old is regularly written off as chav on the names board. Same as NIamh, a name from a thousand year old legend - "chav!" so say lower middle class English people .

The kind of person who makes jokes about people's nationalities, colour, sexual orientation etc etc etc are found everywhere - which part of the globe they come from does not define them as idiots or bigots, or snobs, or whatever term they fall under, their actions do.

No I don't believe everyone in England has an inbuilt unconscious prejudice against the Irish customercare. I do think systemic anti-Irish prejudice exists in the UK, although it has lessened slightly in recent years. Bigots spout it more readily, but it is there all the way across society.

You may dismiss it, but you are dismissing the lived experiences of many Irish people on this thread.

I am dismissing it your claim there is a widespread, systemic anti-Irish prejudice across the UK - because that is my lived experience of living in multiple parts of the UK and mixing with all kinds of people.

However, I believe there are some people in every country who display prejudice against all sorts of things.

Are you Irish SirChenjin?

What's wrong with loving your country or your culture? Get over it.

SirChenjin
"so does that follow that only people who were discriminated against are 'allowed' (for want of a better word) to feel proud of their roots? What happens if that country was also responsible for various atrocities, both to its own citizens or abroad? Or isn't discriminated against in other parts of the world"

Well you are talking about countries, though the example I had in mind when I wrote were the Indigenous Mexicans who have been very much discriminated against by Mexican society, even though most Mexicans are nearly 80% or 90% Indigenous themselves.

I know if I were English I would have a lot to be proud of. In the end it is only a small minority of people who are responsible for the invasion and colonialisation of other countries and to my mind the shamefulness of these decisions belongs entirely to them.

I was talking about countries because that was the premise of the OP - which is the fact that you were born in X country means you have something to be proud of. I suppose I'm questioning at what point do you look past (dismiss?) the atrocities committed by your country, or people within your country, to say I'm proud of being X - when X means simply I was born somewhere and have lived here all my life, as have my forebears?

Hit return too soon...I'm also questioning what it means to 'come from' somewhere, as so many of us move about across the globe. Where you were born? Where your parents were born? Where you spent your childhood, or young adulthood?

I can see where Dermot is coming from....I feel he's saying he's not ashamed of where he came from, in the same way that people who become successful say they are proud of their working class roots.
I'm N. Irish, brought up Catholic and I live in England....married to an Englishman, English friends, English children....I feel a bit of a fraud saying I'm Irish....I haven't lived there for nearly 30 years...I feel so little connection with where I'm from - definitely feel like an outsider.
But I am always Irish when people ask, no one has ever questioned this given I'm from the North. I always say I'm British on forms because I have a British passport. I won't wear a poppy. I dislike nationalism. I'm a big pile of contradictions!

Maud, equally some people display an inbuilt prejudice against the English. That is my lived experience. So don't claim the moral high ground for yourself

Not sure why you think I'm claiming the moral high ground customercare, I'm simply speaking to my experience since I came to this country. Nor have I called anyone blinkered, contrary to your earlier post. You seem unnecessarily aggressive and snarky.