In hoping they got that Jihadi John executioner?

[Alfieisnoisy]

Very odd AIBU and perhaps I am being very U.

I am as woolly and bleeding heart as you get usually.

I know we set a dangerous precedent by these attacks...no jury or judge, no trial (not that they could easily get him back to hold one).

I am conflicted about how I feel but I am just thinking of Alan Henning and all those other people who went out to eithe support aid or to tell the world what was happening and who died brutally at his hands.

I am also sad that a promising young man (from what I have heard) became so radicalised.

Oh I don't know what to think but for the likes of Alan Henning's family I hope this man is now dead. And I shouldn't be speaking for the Henning family, they may not agree with the actions taken, I don't know them or what their wishes may be.

Talk to me those of you able to put an alternate point of view, am willing to be persuaded that the air strikes are wrong but at the moment I just feel glad that they have potentially kills someone who has brought so much suffering to many people throughout the world by his actions.

The only thing that bothers me is that they could not confirm whether they definitely got the right man or not.
If not him, are they bothered about who they did get?
I would be happier with capture and a trIal but can appreciate that may well have been too difficult. I am not sure I can agree with executions of any kind though.

TendonQueen

Another bleeding heart liberal here who's glad he's dead. Classic case of live by the sword, die by the sword. strangechild until you're officially appointed as the person who gets to define these things, you don't get to say who's liberal and who isn't.

I'm not saying I'm some sort of arbiter on these matters. What I am pointing out is that the posters on here defining themselves as liberal, or anti-death penalty, and following it with a 'but' are revealing that they understand their sentiments to be in contradiction with the very values they claim to uphold. They've decided their one sort of person - and then followed it by saying that in this instance they have abandoned those principles.

As I said above I shed no tears over this man's death. But I'm fed up the virtue signalling on this thread followed by a totally illiberal, pro-death response. Just be honest with yourselves. If you believe in the rule of law, and you don't believe in people being summarily executed without a trial, you are not going to be feeling unalloyed happiness right now at what's happened today.

I think it would be more to posters' credit to be concerned about those people suffering directly at the hands of ISIS like the Yazidi women and many ordinary Muslims. What price our Western values if we just abandon them to ISIS rule?

Quite. I think our differences may stem from the fact that you think that assassinating this man is a glorious example of our western principles in action. It's messier and more complicated than that.

I couldn't give a flying fuck. His death didn't come fast enough.

My concern now is that his family will be suing the British government for compensation for murdering their beloved son...

Exactly GiddyOn Good points

He is sadly one of thousands. But no he didn't just get his photo taken a couple of times. He was a figure head, a leader among them and a war criminal,

It's more akin to when police have to shoot a gun man than to a death sentence really.

It's scary to see how many people wouldn't want him tried "in case he gets off", or "because it would cost too much". The wider implications of this attitude are truly terrifying.

I'm not even sure this bloke actually existed. If he did he's a media created bogeyman.

Everything journalists tell us and everything we know about this story emanates from official US and UK press releases, with little references from 'senior officials', 'anonymous sources'. So, no independent witnesses or reports. I think it's right to be slightly dubious about it all...

I'm wondering who's interests is it in to see "Jihadi John" dead rather than captured and interrogated in Moscow over what he knows about the alleged taking down of the Russian airliner?

How do you know he was a leader? I understood that his role was as a propaganda tool. A twisted individual willing to murder in cold blood, yes, but not a leader.

Ok would you prefer the word "figurehead"?

Okay strangechild, so how should we have dealt with him?

So the choice is sending in troops to capture him, which would have been nigh on impossible, and also would have put troops at risk of absolutely unimaginable horrors. The other would be to let him carry on raping and murdering and oppressing the innocent.

The third is that we would have had to get him via traditional warfare. Which would involve killing hundreds of thousands of frontline ISIS grunts who aren't even Islamic extremists but are forced to be there on pain of death and because it's the only way they can feed their families. Apparently that number includes an awful lot of children.

But as I said earlier, liberals don't give a shit about the rights of any of those people not to be harmed by ISIS or their activities. Liberals only give a shit about people's rights when they start cutting off other people's heads or raping Yazidis.

Incidentally, I think a lot of people, including you, are confusing normal justice with actions in wartime.

Even in the course of normal justice in this country, if the police believe that a criminal is going to commit harm to an innocent person, which cannot be prevented other than by shooting them, then they will shoot them. Jihadi John was the same, the only way they had of stopping him from harming innocent people was to kill him.

I think the wider implications of rule by religious zealots with guns are far worse than a few people huffing (as most of us do) about daft court decisions.
But carry on worrying about your terrifying co-Mumsnetters if you wish!

at booyaka

batshitlady. ISIS release all the videos themselves. Are you going to tell us that ISIS don't really exist and it's all a U.S. conspiracy? So why are Russia going long with it? China?

I

JJ was very well known to our intelligence services, (who identified him as soon as his image and voice were first broadcast in I.S videos). MI5 also carefully tracked his movements and desperately tried to recruit him as an informant and covert agent. Therefore I reckon MI5 has serious questions to answer about its relations with this man. In particular, whether they were successful in doing so for a start. I'm wondering if JJ actually went to Syria with MI5’s foreknowledge and blessings? Just a thought! After all both Britain and the US have informers inside the IS. Doesn't seem to be helping much though eh?

IS are ultimately products of the interventions by U.S and its allies. Like Al Qaeda was a few years ago, IS is a creation of US and Western foreign policy, unleashed upon the peoples of the region in pursuit of definite strategic aims. And here we all are gloating over the death of one of their sad, deluded, murdering acolytes.

We're being duped folks, don't fall for it!

This is Cage speak, isn't it?

No. I'm not sure he was a figurehead either. He was a media bogeyman, a 'celebrity' for the purposes of the people with power.

Even in the course of normal justice in this country, if the police believe that a criminal is going to commit harm to an innocent person, which cannot be prevented other than by shooting them, then they will shoot them. Jihadi John was the same, the only way they had of stopping him from harming innocent people was to kill him

yy very true

I do not support extra-judicial killings and this sets a dangerous precedent, Tiivola's post reflects my views.

However, I hate the fact that any time ISIS is discussed on MN, people start defending the Assad regime and claiming the uprising was all a Western plot. It wasn't and Assad played a very large role in the rise of ISIS.

So Pontipines, as I have asked several times, and had no answer: if we didn't deal with Jihadi John like this, how would you have him, and other senior ISIS figures, dealt with?

Because as far as I can see, the main liberal train of thought, is that no matter how horrendous ISIS's actions are, they should just be allowed to get on with it, because their right to a trial trumps the right of anybody in Syria not to be murdered, or crucified or maimed, or just simply not to have to live in fear under ISIS.

I'm sure many more people are taken out that we don't hear about. Quite a quick end for him I would imagine, unlike his victims.

Booyaka

I've been commenting on this thread because I'm sick of posters claiming to be liberal and against the death penalty, and following it by effectively saying 'but you know, in this instance, I'm ok with abandoning the position I've just claimed.' It's called hypocrisy. You either believe in people being tried and sentenced in a court of law, or you don't. FWIW, as I keep repeating, I'm hypocritical too: I'm not sad they've got him, but I am very uneasy that this is how it has happened, and worried at the level of vitriol and hate on here. We're either better than these people - in which case let's hold ourselves to a higher standard of conduct - or we're in danger of debasing the kind of ideals we claim to hold.

But you know what, don't listen to me, listen to the friends and families of those killed by this man:

A friend of Alan Hemming’s said today: “Initially I was elated when I heard the news but as I thought more about it I thought it would be better to have caught him alive. He should have been made to answer to his crimes.

David Haines’s wife said: "I regret that he was not captured alive but at least he will not kill any more people."

Diana Foley, mother of James Foley said today: “It saddens me that here in America we are celebrating the killing of a deranged, pathetic young man.’
The went on to say about the incident:
"I wish some of those resources had been utilised to save young Americans. Jim would have been devastated with the whole thing. He was a peace maker. He would have wanted to figure out why this happened. There’s no justice, it’s just sad. I think we should be careful not to glorify the death of this deranged young man. I hope our country can choose to lead in ways of peace."

Strange, that's a great, sad, post which echoes my feelings very well.

But again strangechild, you've ignored the question. If we didn't deal with him like this then how? The families of his victims may have wanted him alive, ideally, but that could only be done by putting more people in line for exactly the same fate their relatives had, or maybe worse.

We can't negotiate with them the way you can with the IRA or even people like Hamas, because they do not have specific aims or grievances aside from wanting a worldwide extremist Caliphate.

And if through traditional warfare, that would involve far more civilian deaths, destruction, famine and abuse than one targeted strike.

Look at what happened in Europe after WW2, the allies had to fight right the way across mainland Europe from both sides before they got to the Nazi leadership in Berlin. That fighting led to famine, there were mass rapes, children were forced into fighting, people's homes, livelihoods and crops were destroyed.

Yet if we went back to the 1940s and we miraculously found technology which would allow us to pinpoint the whereabouts of Hitler, Himmler, Hess, Goering, Goebbels and Von Ribbentrop and destroy them, vastly curtailing the war and preventing a lot of that destruction, people like you would be wringing your hands over their right to a fair trial and trying to block it.

Yes, the ideal is a fair trial. In reality that's often just not possible, and the alternative is to allow a lot more innocent people to be harmed.

And yes, as I've said before, these people to you are just some faceless, shapeless, rightless mass, because you only ascribe rights to those who have done wrong, not the innocent.

yanbu

I too am against the death penalty and was just pondering this was there any other choice

I would rather he was caught and went to trial and now he has died a martyr and can we ever be completely sure

Then if he had been caught bringing him to trial would have created more support

It's terrifying what is happening extreme depravity the total destruction Isis are not a group who want to negotiate so what other choice is there but to crush them and bring to trial those that are financially supporting them

Basically they had the opportunity to eliminate him and they did. I'm glad they did although like others i'd have like to have seen him brought to proper justice i.e. brought to a similar fate as his victims and not the easy ride to his virgins.....

I also couldn't care less whether it was the US, UK or Russia or any other nationality that did the deed. You can't negotiate with these people, they don't live by or respect anyone else's rules. To do anything other than kill him when you have the chance just risks more innocent lives and as far as they are concerned shows that we are weak and deserving of scorn, and death by their hand.

Good riddance to bad rubbish. He is probably not the first and I hope he is not the last.