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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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to think that this 'transsexual' Jesus play should not get public funding?

508 replies

whatwilltheythinkofnext · 12/11/2015 16:07

I would say 'no words' but how about "disgusting, insulting, disrespectful, immoral..." need I go on? How does this awful thing get 'public funding' - I'd be demanding a refund of my council tax. Enough already!

OP posts:
GruntledOne · 14/11/2015 19:53

Feeble disingenuosity. I won't be engaging with this poster any further either.

Translates as: "I couldn't think up a respectable argument in response."

I love Faberge's kneejerk condemnation of the dreaded so-called liberal left. If someone popped up now telling everyone that they should be tolerant and loving towards everyone including transsexuals, should forgive people for any offences, should help people in need and give to the poor, for sure the likes of Faberge would instantly write them off as do-gooding liberal lefties.

BrendaFlange · 14/11/2015 19:55

"And pp are right when they say this author (or any other) wouldn't dare stage a play depicting Mohammed as transsexual"

How do you know? Salman Rushdie and his publishers 'dared' to write a book that was deemed offensive by some Muslims, the publishers of Charlie hebdo published again the week after by he attacks and have continued to so so. I have seen a play at the National Theatre that challenges the 'no go zone' that (some) Muslims have tried to create around discussion and depiction, and a play at a fringe theatre in which gay sexuality was explored in the context of the mosque and the character envisioning himself in love with Mohammed. A fictional scenario, you understand, by a gay male muslim writer.....

How do we know Jo Clifford is remotely interested in writing a play about Islam? You might more reasonably assume that to do so was more likely to be a deliberate act of provocation or mockery. However many writers tend to plumb the material that shaped their own lives and the tension for young people growing up in the Christian church has often been between their own identity as gay, or trans or whatever, and the doctrine and heavy moral pressure put upon them. I have seen many works about this - most about Catholicism because of the emphasis on sin and confession. So if this writer had a profound sense of conflict between her upbringing, church, feelings and self image, I would expect that play to be abut Christianity, not Islam.

I ask again - do you WANT a situation in which people are silenced out of fear of violence from writing about Christianity? Is it a triumph for Muslims and Islam if murdering bastards put a gag on free expression?

Jo Clifford said of earlier protests: "I wanted to point out that this does not have any foundation in the Bible. The people who angered Jesus were the scribes, Pharisees and hypocrites – the people who were deeply prejudiced those who passed judgment on people they did not know.”

"And pp are right when they say this author (or any other) wouldn't dare stage a play depicting Mohammed as transsexual" - Faberge - I don't think it is rigt to make assumptions about what other people would or would not do. You do not like it when people make assumptions about your articular brand of Christianity, so don't presume to second guess what other people may or may not do.

If born Yussuf Clifford she may well have written a similar play for all we know.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep · 14/11/2015 19:57

I don't think the description of Jesus as 'perfect' can refer to any more than his soul, rather than his state of mind or physical body, do you?

I mean, we know he got angry at the temple money changers, I never feel very perfect after I've lost it with the DC...

Would it have been OK to write a play 200 years ago depicting Jesus as being left-handed?
Would it be OK now?

FabergeEggs · 14/11/2015 20:00

Translates as: "I couldn't think up a respectable argument in response."

You may not think my contribution to this thread has been respectable argument but I would have to disagree. Quite vociferously Grin

Shallishanti · 14/11/2015 20:01

so, FE, you're a feminist now?
Hmm

BrendaFlange · 14/11/2015 20:03

"The Gospel According to Jesus, Queen of Heaven is part of the Outburst Queer Arts Festival in Belfast, and is advertised with the tagline: “Jesus is a transsexual woman. And it is now she walks the earth.” "

And presumably all the more accessible to the thousands of gay, queer and trans people who walk this earth. 'People like me' is important. The church's insistence that only 'people like Jesus' and people like Jesus' disciples' can be bishops, priests and Popes has probably alienated women in a way that Jesus would never had wished. If in the Bible, Jesus was born to a carpenter to be an ordinary person, to represent all personkind, why the dogged insistence of the church that it just be THIS kind of person - a man?

Some chink of enlightenment has shone through in the CoE with female vicars and then (oh the agony, the blocks, the wait...) bishops. Maybe gay and trans people would like to see themselves reflected on the church's big human family? If they are not you can hardly blame them for challenging, satirising the church's position, or creating their own.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep · 14/11/2015 20:05

BrendaFlange has made the other point I was going to - is it a good thing that people are too scared to mock (or even discuss) Islam?
Do posters making this point, think it increases the level of respect in which the Muslim community are held in the West?
Do you think it helps the cohesion and development of Muslim countries, even?

Back in the days of the Spanish Inquisition, no-one would have dared write a play portraying Jesus as anything other than exactly what the Catholic Church said he was.

Was that some sort of halcyon age of Christianity?

FabergeEggs · 14/11/2015 20:11

Anyone of any sexuality, creed, race or leaning need only read God's word to know they are loved but that we have all fallen short of the glory of God. Sinners. All of us. No need to look anywhere else in the world to know what God wants from us as human beings.

RebeccaMumsnet · 14/11/2015 20:14

Hi all,

Thank you for the reports.

Can we please draw your attention to this post and remind everyone we respect individuals' rights to choose the pronouns by which they're addressed, and will delete any posts in which posters persistently/positively deny them that right.

Many thanks

Dawndonnaagain · 14/11/2015 20:17

Tropesque? Tropesque? Good grief, you're making it up as you go along. No such word.

As for God's love, does that extend to people too, people being kind, loving, tolerant...

FabergeEggs · 14/11/2015 20:29

So. That's that. I have to refer to a transwoman as 'she'. If that is the case I will no longer be participating in this discussion.

Good night, all.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep · 14/11/2015 20:32

I guess you could just go crazy and refer to her by her name?

Obviously, if you feel you need to leave the thread, go for it, but it's a bit of a shame, as you seem to be the most educated and articulate fundamentalist I've ever 'met', and I thought you might be interested in talking about some of the points above.

redstrawberry10 · 14/11/2015 20:45

How do you know? Salman Rushdie and his publishers 'dared' to write a book that was deemed offensive by some Muslims, the publishers of Charlie hebdo published again the week after by he attacks and have continued to so so.

the difference, of course, is that there are potentially violent repercussions for doing that. So, perhaps the correct statement is not that people wouldn't dare, but it takes a brave person to dare because there will be credible threats on their lives. In the case of Rushdie, the threat was credible, and in the Hebdo case they were carried out.

BrendaFlange · 14/11/2015 21:02

"Anyone of any sexuality, creed, race or leaning need only read God's word to know they are loved but that we have all fallen short of the glory of God. Sinners. All of us. No need to look anywhere else in the world to know what God wants from us as human beings."

Any creed? Any creed will be OK if they will only get a grip and become a Christian? And what about me? I do not believe in God. Any god. Does that mean that you and I can have no conversation? Because your answer is 'read god's word'? and that is your only position? What of my opinions, beliefs and position? You have no interest in it except to try and persuade me out of it?

Dawndonnaagain · 14/11/2015 21:12

So. That's that. I have to refer to a transwoman as 'she'. If that is the case I will no longer be participating in this discussion. Is that your tolerant religion speaking?

redstrawberry10 · 14/11/2015 21:13

No need to look anywhere else in the world to know what God wants from us as human beings.

where can I look? And is it convincingly a good source?

pointythings · 14/11/2015 21:21

So. That's that. I have to refer to a transwoman as 'she'. If that is the case I will no longer be participating in this discussion.

So you're being asked to respect someone's wishes and show a little courtesy - and that prompts you to leave the discussion. That says a lot about you, none of it very pretty.

Senpai · 14/11/2015 21:30

No evidence at all that any man called Jesus defied the Romans and demanded reform. Literally none.

That's because he didn't defy the Roman's. Even said give Caesar what is Caesar's.

He defied the Jewish Church.

There's crucifixion records, but even the census records are shoddy around that time.

Bumbledumb · 14/11/2015 21:44

I can see a lot of sense in portraying Jesus as a transsexual. Christians are far too comfortable with the idea of Jesus as the poor carpenter's son. Portraying him as a transsexual challenges them to still see Jesus as God.

TiggyD · 14/11/2015 21:48

So. That's that. I have to refer to a transwoman as 'she'.

You should even call them a transwoman. That's like calling somebody a blackwoman or a gayman. Trans woman is better, and in normal conversation just woman.

GruntledOne · 14/11/2015 22:40

Sinners. All of us.

Speak for yourself, dear.

Senpai · 14/11/2015 23:02

Christians are far too comfortable with the idea of Jesus as the poor carpenter's son. Portraying him as a transsexual challenges them to still see Jesus as God.

Jesus was a radical Jew who challenged the current state of religion, and made a counter movement. If he was alive today he'd be hanging out with the hookers, drug addicts, tax collectors, the lowest of the low by today's standards... and decrying the current Christian religion.

If that doesn't make people see Jesus as human and a free thinker who would want people to challenge religion in the words of their own holy book, a play that is designed to offend and repel Christian followers isn't going to do much.

Most will just roll their eyes or clutch their pearls and write it off completely.

dontcallmecis · 15/11/2015 00:45

No twiggy. Transwomen are not women. Wanting to be a woman doesn't make it so. It's basic biology.

They are transwomen.

I am a woman. Not a ciswoman. Just a woman. I don't have testicles, a penis, or a prostate.

multivac · 15/11/2015 02:03

"Woman" isn't biology. It's semantics. And therefore overwhelmingly more to do with culture, than anatomy.

dontcallmecis · 15/11/2015 06:52

Woman = adult human female.