to think that this 'transsexual' Jesus play should not get public funding?

[whatwilltheythinkofnext]

I would say 'no words' but how about "disgusting, insulting, disrespectful, immoral..." need I go on? How does this awful thing get 'public funding' - I'd be demanding a refund of my council tax. Enough already!

Rose I'm not doubtful about the Tesco incident, because I was actually there. Did it piss me off that I had some woman forcing her belief system on to me, giving me a lecture about 'gambling' and making me wait for a manager to come over to complete a completely normal transaction? You bet it did.

And no, I'm not making a direct comparison of the middle east & Northern Ireland (although there are plenty of similarities). I was pointing out the inaccuracy of this statement of yours: Muslims who live over there are getting killed simply for not being the right sort of Muslim, thousands are fleeing, and you're saying that Christians are ramming their religion on everyone? They're not slaughtering each other ffs.

Rose, you asked- "Well give me an example of when Christians ask for exemptions in the workplace?"

I gave you two examples where Christians had actually gone to court to try to get exemptions in the workplace- but you say they aren't the sort of thing we are talking about. In what way are they not?

You then make a passing reference to something you had read about Muslim shop workers refusing to handle pork- but are not able to give any details. How can I possibly comment on the case if that's all I've got to go on?

Bert - and the direct experience I had was dismissed as 'doubtful'.

"If you do not like christian principles there is no edict that says you MUST send your child to a faith school whatsover."

Of course there isn't. However, the system does mean that in some places, Christians have a wider choice of schools than non Christians. Which is obviously unfair.

And all schools, faith and otherwise, have compulsory Christian worship. So there is no such thing as a secular school in this country.

Why did you include the word "little"

to distinguish between ostentatious displays vs small personal ones. It was meant to be a point in her favour, in that she isn't asking for a big concession. small crosses should be fine.

and you're saying that Christians are ramming their religion on everyone?

whoa, slow down. did I say they were the only ones? Did I say that it's not worse in Muslim countries? Of course it's worse there. That's one (of the many) reasons I live in the UK rather than Iran.

But that doesn't mean Christians aren't ramming there religion onto everyone here. In fact, it's so ubiquitous people accept some of it as just part of life. When you asked what exceptions do Christians get in the work place, the fact that you get your holy days off work when no else does is completely forgotten.

There are plenty of other schools available

not in parts of London. There are places where I simply couldn't live because the nearest schools are Christian, and all other schools are too far. Simply put, christians have far more school choice than I do in this country.

You then make a passing reference to something you had read about Muslim shop workers refusing to handle pork- but are not able to give any details.

this is, however, the system here. Religious exceptionalism seems to be supported by most Christians. I see people like Rose utterly silent on the privileges of Christianity in this country and then get upset when muslims refuse to sell pork at tescos (I think the incident was actually at M&S). In any case, unless you are a secularist (as I am. So I object to the muslims refusing to sell pork as it interferes with the job to be performed), all you are really upset by is that in this case your privileges aren't as great as theirs.

www.theguardian.com/business/2013/dec/23/marks-and-spencer-muslim-alcohol
There's just one of the many many examples, but really you know this goes on, how strange that you pretend otherwise. Apart from that the examples you gave about the BA employees were totally different, as you know, they were being victimised, totally different.

There's just one of the many many examples, but really you know this goes on, how strange that you pretend otherwise.

I don't know if "you" is me, but I agree with you that employers shouldn't pick and choose what religious beliefs to respect. I think the criteria should be whether the dress or belief interferes with the job. If yes, the employer should have the right to ask to do your job or leave. Otherwise, and a small cross fits into this, people should be free to express their religion as they like.

But again, the outrage over this pales in comparison to the silence over all the concessions christians get. it's just not comparable at all.

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/31491/Outcry-as-Muslim-M-S-worker-refuses-to-sell-unclean-Bible-book
There's another, I could go on for ages, and I really didn't have to scrape the barrel, , I shouldn't really have to do this, most would know.
I'm amazed that you could seriously say that you are sick of Christians expecting exemptions in the work place but wouldn't be sick of this kind of thing equally, or even worse, deny all knowledge of it.

Right. The prohibition on alcohol is a fundamental of the Islamic faith. If there was something that was equally fundamental to Christianity I would expect employers to make reasonable adjustments for it. It is not a requirement for a Christian to wear a cross or not to officiate at a civil marriage service for a gay couple. I'm trying to think of an example. How about an employer would be wrong to force a Christian to work on Christmas Day or Easter Sunday.

I'm amazed that you could seriously say that you are sick of Christians expecting exemptions in the work place but wouldn't be sick of this kind of thing equally, or even worse, deny all knowledge of it.

I said I was sick of both.

But I have never actually experienced the exceptionalism that muslims seek. no one has refused to serve me alcohol.

On the other hand, when I moved to London, we had to reject living in a certain place because the three closest schools were Christian (2 C of E and one Catholic).

So, my guess is unlike you, I think all religious groups should not be given special treatment.

For those talking about schools - there are lots of state/ non Catholic/C of E) schools to choose from. Why pretend there's no choice - in the UK?! Please.

If for any reason a person doesnt want christianity taught to their children in any significant way it is perfectly possible and makes good sense (as opposed to blatant hypocrisy) to send your child to a state school where your child won't ever be required to attend Mass and there is far, far less emphasis on faith teachings.

And the woman refusing to sell the bible was roundly condemned by *everyone^ including other Muslims!

How about an employer would be wrong to force a Christian to work on Christmas Day or Easter Sunday

how about everyone automatically just gets that day off. It's a national holiday!

The prohibition on alcohol is a fundamental of the Islamic faith.

it shouldn't matter how fundamental something is to someone's faith. For one thing, many practitioners disagree with what's fundamental (I imagine some muslims are happy to sell pork, but don't eat it). A shop owner shouldn't have to dance around someone's religious beliefs. If you can't sell pork, you shouldn't work in a shop that sells pork. Simple. Vegetarians shouldn't work in abattoirs, sikhs shouldn't work at barber shops, and christians shouldn't work at the big gay cake shop if they refuse to do a fundamental part of their jobs because of their beliefs.

MistressDeeCee- how would you feel about a policy where if a Christian decided to apply for a place at a faith school for their child, they were not allowed to apply to a non faith school as well?

Why pretend there's no choice

because in some places there isn't. But it's also not right that christians have more school choice than other people.

far, far less emphasis on faith teachings.

but still some.

Utter nonsense, my local Tesco has many Muslim ladies working there, all handle alcohol. Across the country there are literally thousands of small shop owned and staffed by Muslims, they stock and sell alcohol, no problem.
You're right, it is not a requirement to wear the crucifix, neither is it a requirement in the Koran to wear the jihab, it is a personal choice, therefore the hristian women should not have been required to remove them. But can you still not see... the comparisons you've made aren't right. They're totally different.

how would you feel about a policy where if a Christian decided to apply for a place at a faith school for their child, they were not allowed to apply to a non faith school as well?

sounds good to me. You either apply to faith schools are non-faith schools. not both. Christians of course would hate this EVEN THOUGH this still leaves them with more school choice than others.

Redstrawberry nor me, but there have been many instances of it happening. I make reference to them because Bert said he was sick of. Christians expecting exemptions in the workplace, ( but he could only think of two examples) so why would he be sick of it? but he couldn't think of any other religion doing the same.

nor me, but there have been many instances of it happening.

I gave big exception for christians: that the whole country gets a holiday on their holy day. That's not a coincidence. That's precisely Christians getting a massive concession.

But I am glad we agree that no religion should have exceptions. So I assume you want to get rid of Christmas as a national holiday, church schools and the like?

BertrandRussell Id rather not go into hypotheticals, thank you. Can't see the point of all that.

As I see it the UK is fundamentally christian despite attempts on get around that by the "I dislike Christianity but I want my child in a faith school as I believe the education is better" or the "why should faith school pupils get a better education" brigade (& believing its better yet condemning the christian faith aspects of it seems entirely odd to me) who hardly seem to know what they want and only start thinking of it when their child reaches school age.

I actually think its ok to want that - but the hypocrisy aspect of it all makes me raise a brow. Don't cherry pick what you do and don't like in plain sight as and when it suits. Just call it as it is

believing its better yet condemning the christian faith aspects of it seems entirely odd to me

it's not the christianity that makes it better, it's the selection. If some schools required parents to paint their faces red every Sunday morning to get their children into the school, that school would also be better. You are directly choosing parents who have researched the local schools, and jumped the hoop to get their children in.

"Salman Rushdie is one person, not many would dare speak out like him, which is exactly my point." Rose are you wanting a situation where people are afraid to express themselves frely with regard to religious matters? Are you wanting a situation where something that offends Christians illicits a violent response? Attacks?

"she should be allowed to wear her little cross
Why did you include the word "little"
Totally unnessessary but also very telling. Another example of belittling Christians." Don't be so hysterical - it WAS a 'little' cross and presumably the poster is making the fact that it was small and even less worthy of banning. God grief. She was being objective on your behalf.

If for any reason a person doesnt want christianity taught to their children in any significant way it is perfectly possible and makes good sense (as opposed to blatant hypocrisy) to send your child to a state school where your child won't ever be required to attend Mass and there is far, far less emphasis on faith teachings. Compulsory worship of a broadly Christian nature in ALL State schools. Thank goodness I moved to a sensible country that teaches about religion without worship. www.secularism.org.uk/collective-worship.html

"As I see it the UK is fundamentally christian despite attempts on get around that by the "I dislike Christianity but I want my child in a faith school as I believe the education is better" or the "why should faith school pupils get a better education" brigade (& believing its better yet condemning the christian faith aspects of it seems entirely odd to me) who hardly seem to know what they want and only start thinking of it when their child reaches school age."

If I can pick through that rather convoluted sentence, I absolutely agree that people pretending to have faith to get into a particular school is absolutely outrageous. Having schools you have to have faith to get into is also outrageous. Oh, and faith does not make schools "better". Being selective makes schools have better results, regardless of the selection criteria. Undersubscribed faith schools have exactly the same results and any other comparable school.