To expect that grandparents should be included in Christmas?

[Mishaps]

If you take yourself on to Gransnet you will find a thread that will illustrate to everyone here how deeply hurt some grandparents are at not being included in the family Christmas. There are women there who have been the lynchpin in creating wonderful family Christmases for their children over decades and who will be on their own on the day.

I know that some families have rifts in them and not all parents make a good job of their role, but might this not be a time to heal some wounds and act out of kindness?

Lots of grandparents say they do not mind being left out, but please bear in mind that sometimes they just do not want to admit out loud how hurt and lonely they feel.

There will be many grandparents for whom a lonely Christmas day will bring tears.

Mmmmm. Many older people expect to be the centre of attention at family gatherings, and Christmas is no different IME. Mixing the generations is often a recipe for disaster. I'm very fond of the PIL, but on a selfish note, we can all relax and enjoy the day much more when they've gone home.

We live relatively near my parents & my PILs. We have always split the day, or spent one day with one set & the next day with the other set. I only get 2 days off at Christmas, it would be quite a nice change to have a relaxing break instead of traipsing about.

PILs threw DH out due to a MH breakdown and the consequent reduction in his income, about a decade ago. I literally found him sitting outside my office, crying, as I left for the day. We'd only been together a few months & weren't ready to move in together but he came to live with me anyway. It was that or a hostel (if he was lucky).

After DD was born, they repeatedly came round & pushed their way in, regardless of whether it was convenient or not. I was made to feel awkward by FIL who wandered in & sat next to me as I was BFing DD, topless in a heatwave. They would go upstairs & wake her from her naps & generally be as loud as possible as they came in. If we failed to answer the door, they would bang on the door, shouting & ring our phones continually until we answered or DD cried. If we told them it wasn't convenient, they had a massive strop, left & refused to speak to us, which really upset DH. On numerous occasions they chased the HV or other people out, who'd been invited or made appointments.

Nevertheless, we'll spending part of Christmas with them again this year, because it's easier than dealing with the consequences. We can't wait to move away.

to everyone who's got family issues.

Don't really understand why you think you need to post this OP. I'm sure you didn't mean to but your OP came across to me as a bit patronising towards GPs and a bit patronising and judgemental towards their grown up DCs. I don't think there are enough people out there who need to be told that it would be nice if families were all happy and together at Xmas. It just isn't possible for a lot of families as you have acknowledged - so I wonder who exactly it is you are you addressing in your OP really.

hygge you have made me feel a very very fortunate woman.

I am so sorry that you have had such a rough time.

to hygge

Practicalities can easily conspire to leave people out. My Pils are acrimoniously divorced and both live alone. They would never be able to sit around a jolly dinner table together.

I hated things like this when my so-called parents were still alive.

51 weeks of the year people totally understand why I wasn't in contact with pair of vile abusive bullies, but then along comes Christmas and I'm supposed to let bygones be bygones, set a "forgiving" example for my children and welcome them into my home. Not a chance.

I don't know a single person who has left their parent or grandparent home alone for Christmas without a good reason. the fact some lonely grandparents can't see or accept that reason, or in some cases won't do anything about it, doesn't make it all their child's fault.

And I really do wish people would think before they start trying to make people feel guilty about it. Nobody grows up excited at the prospect of leaving their parent home alone at Christmas. That decision is usually thrust upon them by the actions of the other.

And I'm so sorry Hygge. for you. Your PILs sound like extraordinarily cruel people.

My (widowed) mum lives in New Zealand, it's not practically possible to go over there every Christmas. We're hosting DH family this year in the UK (PiL, siblings and their kids and partners) so she's coming over here for Christmas. If we're at PILs for Christmas up north, the she'll go to her brother's or a friend in NZ. She is invited but she feels like she's intruding and again it's not practically possible for her to come to the UK when we're not going to NZ.

At least when we're in NZ with my mum, PIL will normally have Christmas up north with DH two siblings and their family.

Hygge your PILs don't deserve kindness from anyone.

I forgot to put in my rant, that DH was away for Christmas once. I spent it alone with our DSes, we didn't get so much as a phone call over the Christmas period, from my parents or PILs. My parents had my sister and her family over for the day, my PILs had both SILs and their families over.

Like I say, they can get stuffed!

Hygge - I remember your story too - yet some people will bleat "yes, yes, but it's Christmas !" as if that makes everything ok and suddenly turns horrible people into wonderful ones.

OP - very very few people who are leaving grandparents on their own are doing it for reasons other than a) they are taking it in turns which side of the family to see and it's not their 'turn' or b) the person being left alone is being left for good reasons (even if they can't see it themselves!).

Remember, most of the elderly people who will be spending Christmas alone are doing so because they don't have anyone to go to - not because they aren't welcome. Those who aren't welcome usually aren't welcome for good reasons.

Maybe if grandparents weren't such dismal fuckers people would want to spend time with them.

We have invited my dad to three different arrangements in an effort to suit him for Christmas. The dcs beg me not to make them go to his.

So what exactly am I meant to do? He's on his own, but because of his choices, not mine.

When I read of peevish grandparents whinging about the other grandparents getting an hour more than them on Christmas Day, I lose patience. Some people are so pathetic and needy, I wonder who on earth would willingly spend more time with them. They must stop putting unnecessary pressure on people. Nobody loves a whiner.

Old folk who are widowed/housebound and genuinely isolated are a different story of course. But they tend to keep a stiff upper lip (sadly). No moaning from them.

Just because they're grandparents doesn't mean that they're entitled to spend Christmas with their extended family. My mother in law has just created another unpleasant family drama and has been the catalyst for a lot of upset over the years (not the first time this has happened). We will be retracting the Christmas invite as we don't want to entertain them in our home at the moment. There are only so many times we can endure her petulant, self-pitying claptrap. No doubt they will be now be spending Christmas on their own and stewing in self-pity (they barely have contact with their other adult child) but it is their own doing. To be honest, it will be wonderful to have a Christmas to ourselves for the first time in over 12 years and not have to deal with her silly sulking behaviour. Our children are aware of the situation and, being older, don't seem too bothered.

I find it incredibly frustrating with the attitude in the op, the guilt trip is ridiculous

There are many families where that "grandparent" has absolutely caused a situation where they are not welcome, and why on earth should a family be required to give up their Christmas because a few bleeding hearts take the easy option and claim all should rug sweep and be sweetness and light?

I'm sorry but I find the attitude childish, being kind is not about being a doormat, or ignoring issues, it irritates me that those who pedestal rarely consider the complex intricacies of real human relationships but surface skate on saccharine emotional manipulation because it's an easier rhetoric than truly considering the family dynamic.

There are those who will claim I'm leaving an elderly woman who lost her son and had cancer this year on her own, and you know what I am..... Because the same woman attempted to sexualise my child (attempted not successfully) abused my DH emotionally , verbally and physically and it's one of the most manipulative and twisted people I have ever met

But believe me there will be those who will ignore that, ignore my children's safety and choose to claim I should give her a second (or fifth) chance

Please consider the persons circumstances before this ridiculous rhetoric gets trotted out..... It's offensive

And to the pp who said there is no reason to leave someone on their own, damn right there is a good reason and my children's emotional and physical safety is a good reason

How dare you blithely remove that reasoning

Hmmm. This year my mum and dad couldn't be bothered coming to an EOY dance concert that my daughter's dance school has. It's a really professional production and great show. I was also performing. I practically begged my dad this year. They didn't come last year either although I asked less persistently. In fact, even when we were at another school, not once have they come to a performance. they only live 1.5 hours away.

So screw it. Every year we're in the country we go up there for Christmas and it's kind of expected. Not this year.

For my mother, who is of the bah humbug variety, for her Christmas is like any other day, she will moan all the way through so will not be spending it with us. She is coming to stay the week before, and going just before. She will just ruin it for the kids and us.

Well! - no guilt trip intended! But it is interesting that this is what has been triggered. Feeling guilty is a choice.

I am sad to hear what awful parents and PIL that so many of you seem to have - it is tragic.

Interestingly it is not the experience of my friends and wider family - they all seem to get on with their relatives in varying degrees.

I think TooMuchRain makes a good point in that hopefully most Mums will become grandmothers and they may reap what they sow in terms of setting an example to their children about concern for their parents. I will now duck beneath the parapet as the slings and arrows land!

There are grand parents who will be sad to be left out - and they are not always the parents or in-laws from hell.

Some of my children choose to have the day together as a nuclear family, but they always ring and we chat to the GC and hear what they have been enjoying. But between them they always include us one way or another; and they would be shocked at the idea of not doing so.

If you do have the parents or in-laws from hell I can understand the desire to keep them at bay.

It is sad to see the rifts here between the generations. Is there no-one on here who gets on fine with their parents and/or in-laws?

I didn't say I feel guilty , I said there was a guilt trip in your post...interesting attempt to gaslight there

Your recent post is incredibly enlightening..... I wonder if all your children posted they would see your scenario the same way?

Certainly your insistence in condescension as a tool and avoidance that some grandparents are in the wrong (as opposed to your carefully fence sitting worded statement that you can see why time with unhealthy grandparentsis limited) makes me query the reality of your perception

Can you not accept that your initial post had blanket statements and may not have been correct?

We don't see my grandmother on Christmas Day, although of course we see her during the festive period. She is completely housebound; almost totally immobile, doubly incontinent, registered blind, deaf, and has dementia. She has carers visiting multiple times a day (she refuses 24 hour care or to consider residential care - it was a long battle to get her to accept carers visiting). She lives an hour and a half's drive away.

There is no way she could come to us. She refuses a wheelchair and cannot physically get into a car. Equally there is no way we could spend the day at hers. Her kitchen is not fit for purpose (we have tried to sort it, my uncle even offered to do it himself, but she won't have it) so it's not like we could make dinner there. There is no dining table and only a couple of chairs ad stools in the living room, as she now has a bed in there. My father refuses to visit, so my mum would spend three hours on her birthday - she's a Christmas baby! - driving back and forth on her own to sit in silence with someone who has no idea who she is and who doesn't even know what day it is. In addition, my father has Parkinsons and my mother already spends most of her waking hours caring for him. Christmas Day and her birthday is for her, and I will never judge her for spending it as she wishes.

I'm very close to my parents, DH also loves his family. They all live far away from us and we can only travel in one direction. It's inevitable that my parents will be on their own some Christmases but there's nothing I can do, I can't split myself in two.
SIL is in an even more awkward situation, as her DH's parents are divorced so they alternate between her family and his mother and father.
So it happens that grandparents are left by themselves even when there is no rift in the family.

I wd be taking postings on gn with a tbs of salt. I posted on grans net for a while before mn . Found myself sticking up for people being targeted and attacked by a well organised group . Of course they eventually cottoned on to what i was doing and got organised against me. They were experts in calling people liars in such a way as not to get deleted by gn- or maybe gn has different standards from mn? Anyway long story short i changed to mn and hope to stay here till i pop my clogs. So as several have said , we do not know the back story for the sob stories , so i am withholding pity.

It is sad to see the rifts here between the generations. Is there no-one on here who gets on fine with their parents and/or in-laws?

I am sure that the majority of people get on fine with their parents and wouldn't want them to be alone at Christmas. The posters on gransnet who spend Christmas by themselves may not have a good relationship with their children though. You just don't know and it is rather naive and patronising to come on here to tell "mums" off.