to think that MN should be accessible to everyone?

[lookingforsunshine]

Here are a few facts that I would like the MN community to know:

-Some people who use MN are not English. Many people who use MN did not start learning English as babies. They learnt as older children or adults. It is not easy communicating in another language.

-Some people who use MN have a learning disability. They may have difficulties expressing themselves clearly.

-Some people who use MN have dyslexia which can make writing accurately difficult.

-Some people who use MN have had little or no formal education. They may write poorly due to this. This is not their fault.

Speaking English as a second language is not a crime (actually it is a gift).
Having a learning disability, dyslexia or a lack of education is not a crime. None of the above is the person's fault.

Many people who write poorly are deeply ashamed about this.

Over the last year, I've seen a few posts that are badly written, comments by other posters are rude to say the least. It feels like we do not want people here unless they can write well. We don't want people with poor spelling, grammar or punctuation. How can this be right?!!

If you see a post written by someone who does not write well, try to focus on the actual message, they may well be in need of help! If you genuinely don't understand, either ignore the message (someone else may well understand it) or ask nicely for clarification.

Many people here have children with special needs. In some cases their children will never be able to write 'well', it must be upsetting for parents to see how MN tends to treat people who don't have a great grasp of written English.

If MN is the first place you have encountered people with reading and writing problems, that says a lot more about you than them.

Who decided that it is ok to make derogatory comments about people with poor written English?

But wrt to long walls of text. Nope. I am going to click your thread, take one look and then close it. In days gone old there might have been a kind mnner who would help break it up, but the site is so big people haven't got time for that.

Nothing wrong with paragraphs. Nothing wrong with punctuation. But badly written OPs and post can totally change the meaning of what is being said. There have been threads where it has felt like this has been done deliberately to rile, the majority have been deleted for various reasons. There have been other threads that have been clarified and then the poster can help.
But a badly written op/post can mis lead/confuse and generally lead people to jump to conclusions that may or may not be correct. and thus can be a complete menance to posters and op.

Many people who write poorly are deeply ashamed about this. this is a HUGE assumption. It is not your place to make this assumption for others, even if it might be your own personal view.

The obvious one from earlier today descended into classic (English) txt speak very quickly and the OP didn't ever claim to be a non-English speaker despite it being suggested multiple times on the thread.

Perfect grammar and punctuation is totally unnecessary on a chat forum but I don't think its unreasonable to expect people to communicate in a reasonably intelligible fashion, especially if they are a native English speaker as I strongly suspect this person was and want folk to take the time to reply.

PLus if they want to speak in txt speak there is other places who will welcome them with open arms and cover them in sparkles.

I think writing correctly and succinctly is definitely harder for some people than others. That said, it is reasonable to ask people not to use text speak--that is a choice, not a disability or a language difference.

When I encounter a wall of poorly written English--I would not enter the thread with the intention of mocking the OP, but I would probably not bother reading through it, if I'm honest. I only have limited time to read threads.

What's DH, DSD, DTD, odfod, etc if it's not txt speak

I think it's a bit daft having site specific etiquette rules.

I use lol from time to time and the fact that some people disapprove of it just makes me lol some more.

(I'll admit that hun is probably one step too far though )

Looking through that thread in question:

The OP is clearly someone who struggles a bit with writing English properly. On the other hand, I couldn't help noticing that her punctuation improved somewhat after the comments that people made...? Like, she actually started using some full stops in later posts. So, apparently she does know how to use punctuation at least somewhat.

Although some of us will always have more problems with SPAG than others, we should always try to do our best, out of courtesy to the person who will read what we have written.

Sometimes there is a problem of people not even trying to use capital letters or basic punctuation because they can't be bothered, and they would rather shunt the extra "work" onto whoever will be reading what they have written.

YANBU.

I agree with ICanSpell that there is a lot of text speak already on MN.

MN, IMO, DD, DS, DH, AFAIR, AFAIK, IRL, etc etc etc

The right sort of text speak is ok. The wrong kind is scoffed at.

If you know you're spelling and grammar isn't the best, it can be humiliating to be pulled up on it. MN isn't a job application, it's a lot of ramblings on the Internet. If you want to be a Pedents then fuck off to Pedents corner.

Of course theT should be *your

that

TBF there is considerable overlap between the semi-intelligible stream of consciousness OPs (that lack capitals, punctuation or paragraph breaks) and those that are eventually deleted by MNHQ for or PBP reasons.

I agree OP, I think it's quite rude and pathetic/sad really that people feel the need to point these things out.

i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno’t mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae.. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! if you can raed tihs forwrad it

the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae..

Which they are. Also all the letters are present. As are capitals and punctuation marks.

If everyone posted in that particular brand of gobbledygook there wouldn't be a problem

Lack of capitals and paragraph breaks tend to cause a bigger problem than punctuation Dixie, I agree.

Surely if you read a post and you can't understand it, it's best to leave it at that point. You aren't going to improve someone's education grammar or possible learning disability by being rude and posting just to say you don't understand the post.

Also let's be honest for a minute, you really can understand at least the majority of the post it just makes you feel superior to belittle someone you deem less educated.

I am a grammar Nazi. The dcs are never allowed to get away with "different to" or "Mungo and me are going into town" etc etc.

I would never point out someone's mistakes on here, that would be rude. HOWEVER, bad grammatical errors and poor spelling do make me cringe and often click off the thread.

The reason I've been on MN for (er ten) years is that I find I am around people whose posts I can engage with - or get steamed up about! So shoot me. I don't go on sites about cars, or tech, or other parenting sites. Also, isn't it good to have one's socks pulled up occasionally? I write regularly to a very elderly bluestocking lady. Boy, do I get out my dictionary when I'm a little unsure of a spelling. I'm not insulted that I could be seen to have made a mistake, I want to be kept on my toes.

Two thoughts,

To the OP, YANBU. This place should be welcoming to all, the well educated have a duty rising from the priveledge of their good education to halp those who have not had the good fortune to be sent to good schools and have
parents who support learning.

I generally use an iPad for posting on a forum, the keypad is nightmare to use. It makes typos easu because ybou can't feel if you tough a double key. I am also dyslexic and I often miss my typos.

As to people who have poor English because they were not born in this country. At least they are using our language. I am more than happy to help anyone improve their English. Though yo be honest, I have less patience with people who retain their old language after leaving their country to come here.

Also let's be honest for a minute, you really can understand at least the majority of the post it just makes you feel superior to belittle someone you deem less educated.

I don't agree that the block of unformatted text ones are a result of a lack of education.

And I DO usually click away without comment but I don't see why posters commenting that paragraphs would help are so unspeakable (or 'cunts') or whatever.

Paragraphs WOULD help a lot of people, not least (but not limited to) those of us with SpLD.

I think the only 'community' norm actually adopted by MNHQ is no text speak (because it really buggers stuff up if you use reading software).

I think there is a general expectation that people are nice here, and that if you can writes accurately, you do (because it's much easier for ESOL members to read standard English).

Those who are picking posters for grammar aren't making a point about grammar, but are picking on posters for tiny details. If it wasn't grammar, it would be something else.

Sometimes posters aren't sure what someone means, and if an enquiry/clarification does crop up, it shouldn't automatically be assumed that the poster is picking on someone or being an arse. (Unless of course that poster is a long-term known arse IYSWIM).

I've never been diagnosed as dyslexic, and (according to my university supervisors/colleagues at least) I can write fluently and coherently.

But I still find the 'stream of consciousness/wall of text' posts extremely difficult to interpret.

I'm not being deliberately awkward and I usually can decipher things if I spend long enough editing an OP for myself, but it's hard work. I'm sure there must be other people like me.

I've never commented about someone's SPG, but I am likely to just skip a thread when an OP is very poorly written.

There was a thread last night where the OP was asked to clarify and rewrite her post. She did so, adding in paragraphs, and it was far easier to read and understand. That says to me that she absolutely was capable of writing coherently in the first place, and presumably chose not to bother. That shows a lack of respect for other posters to me.

I don't see why that's any better than posters calling people out on their poor writing skills.

I think there's a difference between criticizing people's grammar / spelling, and asking an OP to clarify her post because it makes no sense at all, especially if it has no punctuation.

It doesn't take a good education or a good command of the English language to know that breaking the words up into manageable chunks make it easier to read.

However, if the OP can't be arsed to hit the enter button a few times when writing her post, I can't be arsed reading it. So good luck to those who can.

Two thoughts,

To the OP, YANBU. This place should be welcoming to all, the well educated have a duty rising from the priveledge of their good education to halp those who have not had the good fortune to be sent to good schools and have
parents who support learning.

I generally use an iPad for posting on a forum, the keypad is nightmare to use. It makes typos easu because ybou can't feel if you tough a double key. I am also dyslexic and I often miss my typos.

As to people who have poor English because they were not born in this country. At least they are using our language. I am more than happy to help anyone improve their English. Though yo be honest, I have less patience with people who retain their old language after leaving their country to come here.

The value of grammer.

PPB, said the OP made a good observation.

PPB said the OP, made a good observation.

And out of curiosity, ihadtoeditoutaboutfivetypostryingtotypetheabove...
(I had to edit out about five typos trying to type the above)

I couldn't agree more. It's so fucking snobby and says volumes more about the person doing the criticising than the person doing the posting.

I've only ever seen a couple of posts on here I genuinely couldn't understand. The 'stream of consciousness' ones I can understand perfectly well - they're not difficult. If you can't be bothered to read them properly then just don't comment on the thread and go away - why is that so hard?