to think that MN should be accessible to everyone?

[lookingforsunshine]

Here are a few facts that I would like the MN community to know:

-Some people who use MN are not English. Many people who use MN did not start learning English as babies. They learnt as older children or adults. It is not easy communicating in another language.

-Some people who use MN have a learning disability. They may have difficulties expressing themselves clearly.

-Some people who use MN have dyslexia which can make writing accurately difficult.

-Some people who use MN have had little or no formal education. They may write poorly due to this. This is not their fault.

Speaking English as a second language is not a crime (actually it is a gift).
Having a learning disability, dyslexia or a lack of education is not a crime. None of the above is the person's fault.

Many people who write poorly are deeply ashamed about this.

Over the last year, I've seen a few posts that are badly written, comments by other posters are rude to say the least. It feels like we do not want people here unless they can write well. We don't want people with poor spelling, grammar or punctuation. How can this be right?!!

If you see a post written by someone who does not write well, try to focus on the actual message, they may well be in need of help! If you genuinely don't understand, either ignore the message (someone else may well understand it) or ask nicely for clarification.

Many people here have children with special needs. In some cases their children will never be able to write 'well', it must be upsetting for parents to see how MN tends to treat people who don't have a great grasp of written English.

If MN is the first place you have encountered people with reading and writing problems, that says a lot more about you than them.

Who decided that it is ok to make derogatory comments about people with poor written English?

pinot I agree some users are unspeakable to OPs at times. But they aren't names, on the whole, that I recognise, and in fact all the regulars I do recognise are generally fairly horrified by unprovoked nastiness, too. In my experience it tends to escalate when some big media event or other has led to a new influx, and they start on AIBU and then try to migrate that attitude over to normal areas of the site.

Anyway. Nitpicking grammar is pretty unpleasant IMO, definitely. Worse than txtspeak... just.

You make some good points Maryz.

I've seen loads of nastiness on MN, in fairness, but that's not quite the same as proper bullying. That happens too, but it's less common than you'd think. It's just that the vicious wankery is so noticeable when it does appear, you don't tend to notice the 98% of moderate to kind posts alongside.

Yanbu.

This Writing a coherent post is another way of making mumsnet "accessible to everyone", isn't it?

and this When its a wall of text that's barely legible and has about 500 points that don't seem relevant or like that fit together and the poster doesn't seem to be asking anything

I presume you've written this in response to a thread I read earlier tonight. I don't like posters who are asking for help and advice to go unanswered (I often have a trawl through the 'unanswered threads' for this reason) and think it's not unreasonable to ask poster to clarify when their OP is very muddled. Sometimes people post really confusing OPs, and people can't offer support / advice if they don't really know what is being asked, or understand the situation. Then it's not unreasonable to ask them to repost in bullet points or paragraphs or whatever - it's not so it's "grammatically correct", it's so we can be clear of the important points.

Whether in real life or behind a screen there are bullies that do swoop, of course there are.

I don't like to see one particular person being called out continually, it's horrible. I in real life, as much as on here, go to their aid.

Time and time again I see it though.

I think there's a culture of being a grammar snob on here that enables people to be far more condescending and superior than they would be in RL.

I do however think there are times when some grammar policing is used well, as a weapon against those of the goady persuasion. Those people deserve it.

But I agree with OP it's not nice to be shitty to genuine posters. I must confess though, I don't read any that don't have paragraphs. It's too much hard work.

Do you report it Pinot? Or just make accusations generally

BTW OP, in your OP you suggest that many people who write poorly are 'deeply ashamed' . I'm sure some people are but I very much doubt it's 'most people'. I'm certainly not embarrassed about my crappy English. I've not got dyslexia or anything else that effects my English - I'm just not great at English. It's not my fault is it.

Pinotblush I really am intrigued about this 'bullying' you are describing. I will keep an eye out. Nice to know you are here to help.

I think if you see behaviour that isn't in the spirit of the site it's perfectly reasonable to report it.

If you're referring to the thread I assume, where people kept asking if the OP was not a native speaker (spend any time in the HE system, and you will swiftly realise that non-native speakers write, articulate and punctuate at a far, far higher level than our native DCs), the OP was extremely difficult to understand. Nothing about it said non-native speaker, but it did indicate someone who perhaps wasn't the most confident of writers or explainers. However, it is difficult also for people to give advice when they simply cannot understand what an OP is saying.

Personally, I simply read and run if I can't get the gist of a post: whilst I wouldn't presume to correct someone else's writing style, or question their first language, there is no point giving advice when you might have completely misunderstood the problem. We all have different skills and strengths, and I agree that some people were rather terse in pointing out the failings of the OP's writing skills, but I genuinely think the majority of posters are not seeking to exclude others, but rather to assist.

Pinot back to your early comment that a lack of education doesn't mean a lack of intelligence. I would say 'education doesn't amount to intelligence'.

I've seen Pinot bullied, bawled at, harangued, hectored and mocked by a couple of regulars on a breastfeeding thread. One of the antagonists was deleted a couple of times; she's still bawling her way across mumsnet.

OP, I'm sorry, but you sound just like any other member of the Thought Police telling us how we should think and why.

I have genuinely never seen anyone on here attack a vulnerable poster. Articulate or not.
I have seen a few being taken down a peg or two though.

Speaking English as a second language is not a crime (actually it is a gift).

A skill, not a gift. The skill of having practised and perfected another language, which skill most of middle England can never dream of yet find it in their gift to be patronising about.

I love here but the fact that we used aberrations just means we us own txt speak .
No here who says DH NT OP is using proper English. So to pick other people use of grammar and spelling apart is stupid .
MN has is own language which you have to learn to be able post here.