To think DB just doesn't want to work, rather than can't?

[nottobeouted]

Backstory: DB is in his 30s mental health issues going right back and recently diagnosed as being on the spectrum (Although I have some experience in the area and I don't quite see it?).

He has never worked, has no qualifications, claims benefits, has always lived with our parents and spends his time in bed or gaming. He has been in this situation for 15+ years.

He talks about wanting to get a job, have a career, move out and over the years there have been a few failed attempts at training courses, college and university courses but everything always becomes "too much" and despite being rather bright he never completes them.

Recently DB had a "crisis" just after his ESA renewal was rejected and ended up back on medication although he is stable again now and has won his appeal. The team DB was treated under said it would be beneficial for him to have some structure to his day and referred him to a charity that helps people get back into employment. To cut a long story short they have spent a long of time with DB building him up with voluntary work (which he says he enjoyed) and have now helped him get an almost perfect job offer trial.

This week he has turned around and says he can't do it, he won't cope, it isn't worth it financially and he won't even give it a try. Our DPs are supporting him in this decision and he is now saying he is going to quit the voluntary role as it is "pointless".

AIBU to think DB doesn't actually want to work as he is in a comfort zone. And to think DM/DD should issue an ultimatum for him to at least TRY or move out. How else will he ever learn to "cope" with his issues? I fear otherwise DB is going to spend the next 30 years stuck at home mooching off our parents leaving them penniless in retirement ?

I sound like a heartless bitch but it seems as though he is doing nothing to help himself and quite frankly I'm exhausted because DM turns to me for emotional support and I'm sick of everything being about DB and his issues.

OP, I completely understand how you feel. My sister has mental health issues that mean she hasn't worked for years and the impact on my family has been immense. It's horrible to see your parents unable to lead happy retirements and doing the things they want to do and having money to spend. Especially when the person in question is ungrateful and unwilling to help themselves and (in my sisters case) actively nasty and borderline abusive. A different condition but I can really emphasise with your post particularly being the main emotional support as very few people outside the family understand what it's like and that there is no answer or solution. I'm also worried about what will happen when my parents aren't around as they have enabled my sister for all of her life. I don't want to do it, to be honest. I have my own family to support now.
I've only just realised that I can detach from this a bit as it was really getting me down. And that my parents relationship with my sister is not my responsibility.
I don't have any answera for you but understand how you feel.

Gumblebee

I have Asperger's, and that description is just so right! Can I steal it in case of future need?!

Of course

Love the maths analogy :)

I woudn't give my DM emotional support in that situation, its just too draining and really wears you down. That may sound heartless but you have a life to live and its hard putting up with your parents moaning about a situation with a sibling, and yet accommodating that sibling.

I agree with caterpillarcat 100%. Its a horrible family dynamic you have to experience it to know

I think YANBU.

I'd love not to work. I hate having to go every day, I hate making small talk and have no confidence in my abilities.

But you know what? I have no choice. And I do not agree with living off others. Life is full of bits we don't want to do. He should just get on with it.

The world is NOT "full of Aspie computer designers"

That's a tiny minority.

The reality of life with Autism....yes even high functioning...is that those with it feel separate, different and at odds with the world.

This makes social activities HIGHLY stressful.

I am HF and I have managed to work out a way to make money alone...at home. I can't cope in an office/shop or other environment with people in it.

Leave him alone.

Chrome do you have autism?

Telling someone with autism to "just get on with it" is akin to telling someone with a broken leg to go jogging.

Chrome do you have ASD?
If yes, then you represent the minority who do, but I would hope that you would understand why so many cannot work.
If no, then I'm sorry it sounds like you have a very poor grasp of autism, and you obviously haven't read the whole thread which includes several accounts from people with ASD.

X-post fairylea.

I think there is an assumption that if you look ok you are ok, and if you have difficulties for any reason, you're attention seeking or being lazy, or a special snowflake .

Wow, I loved the Maths analogy. I reckon that undiagnosed AS/HFA is behind the social anxiety, agoraphobia, anxiety and depression I struggled with so badly. I'm kind of okay now, I can cope with being a SAHP and being self employed as a creative (though not yet self supporting). So I appear quite well, but I still struggle with new things and unexpected social situations, and find regular ones exhausting and do the rehearsing and post match analysis of them. Giving myself permission to find the social crap/maths difficult and not to feel crazy about it has helped my self esteem - instead of wasting precious energy on "Why am I like this? I'm useless" I can now focus on "Ok, this is one of those things I find difficult, how could I approach it." Basically going from self shaming to problem solving. So I think an adult diagnosis (or in my case simply understanding it to be a possibility) can be helpful, but obviously it can be difficult to get your head around too.

The problem with avoidance as a coping strategy is that your life gets smaller and smaller, and the anxiety for things outside that sphere gets larger and more scary. He really needs compassionate support to continue doing the volunteering thing and to maybe find things that he can do - could he learn to make computer games (not necessarily from a course, but from books/online), could he make apps, write blogs or do vlogs reviewing games etc. This stuff maybe requires more confidence than he has right now and won't necessarily immediately lead to a paid income, but it begins to build up his skills and sense of achievement.

I think that you need to separate out your feelings about not getting the relationship and support you would like from your parents which is completely understandable. We're all human. You can decide if you feel able to approach them for support for yourself or whether you think it would be better to meet those needs elsewhere.

It's a separate issue from whether or not the support they are giving your brother is the most effective or necessary. Even if you were 100% certain that he was 'deserving' of their care and 100% sure that they were caring for him in the most appropriate way - for instance if he had a physical disability/illness and they were providing what professionals would, it would still feel like all their time, attention and love was on him, not you.

You are jealous of your parent's love and attention, not of the life he is leading. I really doubt that he is leading it voluntarily - even if he has a bravado about being able to spend his days playing games.

OP - mumsnet is not the place to get support for your issues because as soon as you mention certain words, reason goes out the window for many posters. My DF suffered ill health for most of the latter half of his life, much of it brought on by lifestyle choices, and my DM had to deal with it. If you have ever observed the stress and damage done to anyone in that position, it stays with you. All of the attention and help is focussed on the patient, and the family whose lives are disrupted are ignored. I do think it contributed to my mother developing cancer and her own early death. In my DF's case, he almost became a bit of a spoilt child, because all of the health professionals treated him as very special, he was not to upset in case it had an adverse effect on his health and so on. In reality he was just an ordinary man, but he came to believe that normal rules didn't apply to him, such as working to earn a living, because everyone running around after him giving him attention was probably very rewarding. In his case, if he had followed the advice about correct diet, no alchohol, stopping smoking and taking exercise (and trying to return to work), his condition might have been reversed, but as it was he didn't and I do sometimes wonder if that was deliberate on his part.

As for AS, obviously it varies hugely between people and many AS persons do hold down jobs and benefit from the social interaction and routine that come from that. It doesn't sound as if your DB has had that opportunity because of your parents facilitating him. I think its awful to write off AS persons as many posters have done on here or to suggest that because it may be a little more difficult for some of them, they should withdraw from the world of work. I also think its appalling that they are minimising your feelings, as if anyone without AS is less important, that their feelings don't matter somehow. I think your parents' contribution to all of this has been minimised and wonder whether if your DB were in a position where he were forced to be independent, he might actually be better off. No-one really knows, do they?

If your DB has held down the voluntary role and enjoyed it, its a shame to let all of that go to waste now. I think your parents are very foolish in not encouraging your DB towards some independence. What will he do when they die? Presumably they will leave him a home and money, but how will he cope with everyday tasks such as paying bills and food shopping and cooking and so on if he has had everything done with him all his life? There are many people with much more limiting conditions than your DB who do live alone, so I can see where your thinking comes from.

It must be very hard for you to sit back and watch your parents behave in this way, I suspect you feel left out and that's a perfectly normal reaction. Have you tried explaining to your parents how you feel, or do they just deflect any such conversations?

What will he do when they die? Presumably they will leave him a home and money, but how will he cope with everyday tasks such as paying bills and food shopping and cooking and so on if he has had everything done with him all his life?

Many adults in this situation do not cope. But the reason for their inability to cope is not that their parents didn't 'encourage' them to be independent. It is because independence is not a realistic outcome for people with certain constellations of disabilities. A combination of ASD and MH problems can be so severely limiting that independence is impossible, no matter how much support or 'encouragement' are offered.

There are many people with much more limiting conditions than your DB who do live alone

This remark demonstrates a lack of awareness of both ASD and MH issues. Moreover, comparisons like this are almost never meaningful.

Situations like the OP's are exhausting and frustrating for everyone involved, but there are no easy answers, and sometimes adjusting expectations is the best way to cope with the emotional stress.

Chrome What an ignorant post. Horrible.

The OP probably would have had a different AIBU experience had she not made her brother out to be a feckless loser, which immediately put the backs up of posters with ASD, and those who have dc with ASD. A tiny bit of thought by the op could have predicted this.
Yes, I get that it's stressful for her, but she has been given very helpful advice by many posters, and several of us have given personal insight which should hopefully help her have more empathy towards her brother.
AS is not brought about by lifestyle choices.
Ultimately, the OP's brother is not her responsibility.
No-one can tell now if things could have been different had he had different support. When only 15% of people with autism work, there are no guarantees that a different upbringing would mean a better outcome.

"No-one can tell now if things could have been different had he had different support. When only 15% of people with autism work, there are no guarantees that a different upbringing would mean a better outcome."

Nope, I wasn't taking credit for my DS BTW, just trying to point out that her DB is expressing anxiety and that if she's not happy with her parents, it isn't her DB's fault.

Well clearly he doesn’t “want” to but it’s very hard to know whether his decision is rational (he judges he can’t cope and he is right about that) or whether it is simply based on anxiety. Many people with ASCs are very anxious about new situations and they may be very avoidant. It's part of the condition and it takes a lot to get round and over that kind of anxiety even with a lot of support. Sometimes it’s just not possible. I am very sorry your DB doesn’t feel able to take up this opportunity despite everything.

You seem to suspect him of simply being lazy. That’s also possible but “some knowledge” of autism isn’t enough to make that judgment. I know a lot about autism and sometimes I find it very difficult even now to judge what is my DS's condition and what is just him being a teenage pain in the bum! But learning a lot more about autism has made me realise that many things I imagined were a "wont" are really a "can't".

Since you feel so drained, perhaps you should consider how to reduce the support (practical or emotional) that you give to your DB and perhaps also to your parents. You seem to think, either he is lazy in which case you can stop supporting him, or it's because he has a disability in which case you have to carry on draining yourself for his sake. But in truth he can have a real disability and you are still not morally obliged to support him at the expense of your own wellbeing. It’s OK to put your own needs first. Take care of yourself

Op mn is not the place you should be seeking support with this. I sympathize with you, it must be really hard for your parents too.

Spot on scemersford.

I have never posted on here in any detail about my Mums MH issues and the massive impact it has had on our family because you just get shot down as a heartless bitch and selfish.

It's must be horrendous to live with MH issues and we all have to be sympathetic, but where is the sympathybformthe family who have also had to live with it. In our case, 10 years.

It's draining for everyone. My Mum won't see that she has MH issues. The Doctors describe her as treatment resistant and my poor DF has ended up with depression and now acts as her enabler, just for a quiet life. Her MH issues have taken the whole family to hell and back. I have lost count of the times I have had to leave work to deal with it, drop everything at home to sort things out. Put up with her hitting my DF and attacking my sister. Having to trawl the streets looking for her at all hours. Listening to constant verbal abuse.

After 10 years of hell, I just stay away now and leave her to it She is in denial, won't seek any help.

I have begged for help and support for her. Sat and cried myself to sleep so many times, ended up,having panic attacks but never mind, I am just a selfish bitch.

Stop judging until you have walked in someone else's shoes. MH issues don't just impact on the person who suffers from it - we all suffer.

OP - take a step back, stop stressing about it and allow your DB and parents to make their own decisions. You can't change them, so stop worrying about what you can't change and live you own life.

AdjustableWrench Many adults in this situation do not cope. But the reason for their inability to cope is not that their parents didn't 'encourage' them to be independent. It is because independence is not a realistic outcome for people with certain constellations of disabilities. A combination of ASD and MH problems can be so severely limiting that independence is impossible, no matter how much support or 'encouragement' are offered.

Actually you have no idea how disabling the OP's DB's As is at all. Or his MH issues. You are projecting, and stereotyping, neither of which is helpful, because you have very set views of how things should be.

There are many people with much more limiting conditions than your DB who do live alone

This remark demonstrates a lack of awareness of both ASD and MH issues. Moreover, comparisons like this are almost never meaningful.

No, it doesn't, and it isn't any less meaningful than assumptions that all AS persons have the same limitations/difficulties, or stereotyping them as being heavily limited in what they do.

You really have no idea, do you?

There are many people with much more limiting conditions than your DB who do live alone

Actually you have no idea how disabling the OP's DB's As is at all

Which is it?

Either it's possible to know from OP's post how disabled her brother is, or it isn't. AdjustableWrench seems to assume nothing in her post, but I can't say the same for you.

Wench!

I have no idea whether the OP DB's is capable of working or not Gumblebee. Do you?

I have no idea whether he is too lazy to work or whether his AS is so severe that he cannot work. Do you know?

You do realise there is a difference between comparing a condition, or set of conditions, than an actual person?

Try and remember that the OP is a person too, who also has feelings.

I have no idea, you have no idea, OP probably doesn't know and OP's brother probably doesn't know either. I have a lot of sympathy for OP because, believe it or not, I also have family members with frustrating and difficult MH problems who struggle, need support, etc.

Wench only explained that many people like OP's brother struggle - you were the one who started stating at exactly what relative disability level you think OP's brother functions, Scremer. I'm not sure why you're taking such a nasty, combative tone with me. Remember, I'm a real person too, and I've opened up on this thread about my vulnerabilities while making no assumptions about OP's really difficult and stressful situation.

Gumblebee Wench only explained that many people like OP's brother struggle - you were the one who started stating at exactly what relative disability level you think OP's brother functions, Scremer. I'm not sure why you're taking such a nasty, combative tone with me. Remember, I'm a real person too, and I've opened up on this thread about my vulnerabilities while making no assumptions about OP's really difficult and stressful situation.

Gosh, I'm sorry. I had no idea you were such a victim. You need to spell these things out for me more clearly. I just assumed you were wanting to cause an argument in an empty room.

I see nothing wrong with the OP discussing how frustrating the situation is for her. These are her parents, and her family, and it does sound as though she is being sidelined, whether or not that is for good reasons. It must be incredibly hard for her. I expect she wants to spout off on here because she isn't able to say the things going through her mind in real life, or that she has tried to explain to her parents but they are all too caught up in the situation.

I also wonder whether the parent's role in this is not exactly helping either of their DCs.