to think schools shouldn't expel children

[Dontexpell]

They will just fall further behind with education which means they will be less likely to get a job or go
To college.

AIBU to think it's a silly punishment.

When last in the UK, expulsion in the area I worked in (deprived), was unheard of due to gov.pressure on schools to contain the children. Last resort pupils were swopped between schools; one nightmare for another.

Do you mean permanent exclusion or temporary? Permanent exclusion is very much a last resort (I teach teenagers who have been permenantly excluded and statemented) and temporary exclusions are often more for the benefit of the school/class/teaching staff than the student themselves.

If schools were more willing to pay X life pupils my dds nose wouldn't have got broken, by a child that had already assaulted her twice.

That child would have been cautioned by the police either.

Schools only do it as a very last resort, very last. Sometimes it's the right thing.

I wonder how many people will now be along to say certain sorts of children shouldn't be allowed in mainstream schools.

As a former teacher, I know that it is the very last resort, after absolutely EVERYTHING has been tried to make it work- changing groups, putting in additional support, involving parents, having a mentor, temporary internal isolation, in school and out of school counselling, educational psychology, other outside agency support, fixed term exclusion, managed move to another school.

It is not taken lightly. The amount of additional paperwork, evidence, governor intervention etc, etc, means that most schools would do anything to try to avoid it. BUT, when you have tried everything and nothing is making a positive difference, you have to look at what is going to be the best thing for the pupil and for the other children in the school.

Unfortunately as a PP said sometimes you need expulsion to get a child help. When we moved areas the LA tried to push the local school to take my DS. I had a frank chat with an on the ball head teacher and she had a frank chat with the LA about what the outcome and damage would be if he attended. He got given a special provision place and is now semi integrating quite well into mainstream secondary without harm to other pupils or himself.

If its felt relevant he's Autistic.

Unfortunately some classes are very damaged by people trying to handle children whose needs are far beyond the level of support a mainstream class can provide. Lowly skilled 1-1's (hopefully obviously not all are low skilled but many are) do little to help provide the specialist support needed and drain funds from the school budget and hence other pupils.

I think expulsion is under used and some pupils are to their and other pupils detriment given too many chances.

I work in a secondary school, your view is laughable.

Some children are so disruptive, aggressive, rude and anti social that they cannot be allowed to disturb the learning of everyone around them. We have on site councillors, along with non teaching heads of year that bend over backwards for the kids, but there's only so much time you can invest before you have no choice but to kick them out.

I spend 95% of my time dealing with the same 10% of the pupils, which means there are 90% getting left to get on with it.

so OP are you going to let us know why your DC was expelled?

I wonder how many people will now be along to say certain sorts of children shouldn't be allowed in mainstream schools.

I'll bite. Certain sorts of children shouldn't be allowed in mainstream schools. Violent, aggressive, persistently disruptive ones who for their own good (and the good of everyone else) are much better in PRUs.

What's the back story OP?

On the contrary I think schools are far too tolerant of unacceptable behaviour these days. I agree that not all children are able to be educated in main stream schools. Every child and teacher has the right to be in a safe environment.

I think a child who is permanently excluded isn't learning anything anyway OP.
do PRU still exist? These used to be the places excluded children studied.
Nobody should be excluded, however sometimes there are no other options.
Perhaps a child is a risk to others and needs to be removed for everybody's sake.
Schools should exist for all children but some just don't suit mainstream and need educating elsewhere.

I have 2 ds with ASD. Both boys were regularly illegally & eventually pernamently excluded whilst in mainstream. Even after diagnosis & Statmenting.

With my older ds the LEA did everything possible to keep him in mainstream. Tactical & strategic meetings were held with the EP, Inclusion Team, ASD support etc. He was eventually pernamently excluded & placed in a PRU. He was 5
Eventually got him into an AS Independent school, funded by our LEA.

Yongest ds. Nothing. No support. Just a newly qualified harassed EP. He was pernamently excluded at 6 yrs old.
I used my LEAs inept & pitiful support against them in a formal complaint. He now attends a different AS independent school.

The mainstream school were out of their depth with both boys. Lack of training, support & knowledge meant it couldn't & wouldn't ever work out. I felt sorry for the staff.

Exclusion meant my boys rnded up in good & appropriate settings...thats a very unusual outcome in this borough.

Well as others have said it's a rare occurrence and only happens when all other measures have failed or the pupil simply cannot be safely accommodated.

I'm waiting to hear why the OP 's child was expelled too.

YABVVVU OP. How many other chidren are having THEIR education and therefore future life choices spoilt by the obviously outrageous behaviour of one child......?

Nothing remotely "silly" about it.

oh yes they should.
YABVVVVVVVVVVU.

I'm a HT who recently permanently excluded a child and I would say that your attitude is bloody ridiculous for the following reasons;

1. We do everything in our power to avoid permanent exclusion because we really do care about each and every child and only consider it as a very last resort.
2. Sometimes it is the only way to get that child the support they need - the LA can't/won't support them unless they legally have to and can't find them a space in a PRU without them being permanently excluded.
3. Its not fair on the other children in their class to have to put up with that level of behaviour each and every day - it has an impact on their life chances too.

On another note - it cost me nothing to permanently exclude but I know that in some neighbouring LAs it costs £10000 for 'admin' when seeking to permanently exclude. That is designed to make it a very, very, very last resort and is usually an indicator that the LA doesn't have any alternative provision to offer them.

OP has vanished.

But actually if OP had a child in the situation in a State school they would know that the term is Permanently Excluded and hoops that state schools have to go through are quite extraordinary.

In my area, as a result of poor LEA exam results, they massively altered the provision of education for excluded children.
Round here if a child is excluded for more than a few days, they are excluded to the PRU
where they receive support and teaching and guidance.
The improvement for them as individuals
for the kids in classes no longer disrupted by them
and the results of the LEA
have been extraordinary.

Hopefully more LEAs will start doing it that way.

Private schools can of course expel on a whim as there is always a state school on hand that has to accept the little horrors.

I wonder how many knives the OP's Kyle was carrying?

I agree there are individual children whose needs are best met elsewhere. PRU's are meant to be short term solutions only.

I actually laughed out loud at your post OP. You clearly have very limited experience of the education system.

Yes PRUs still exist. I work as part of an outreach team from a pru providing early intervention support. Some kids can be 'turned around' (for want of a better phrase) and others can't.

The issue us when PRUs can't handle the violent and aggressive kids. We have one in our yr 11 1:1 group (that's 1:1 case work 4 hours a day in a pru se tying, not mainstream) and he just can't handle it. He tips tables, Spurs, swears and has assaulted 2 members of staff. He's been with us one week.

It's not fair to insist that all children attend mainstream schools. Some can't handle the social element of mainstream, some don't cope with the academic side. The need for individualised support is very apparent across all local authorities.

Another inflammatory post & run thread. MN will need to be sponsored by Nurofen soon

Illegal exclusions are a nightmare for children with any kind of SEN.

I have a friend whose sun has mental health issues, autism and PDA. He's been in the PRU for a few years and recently transferred to a special school, unfortunately this has not worked well and his parents are frantically trying to find an appropriate school for him which can meet his mental health needs

The fact that many schools which could meet the needs of children like this have shut down is a disgrace and the reason that LEA's end up spending £40k per year on Independent school fees for one child. A purity they shut so many of the state funded ones down really.

OP I don't know what your back story is but my advice is to get hold of your local Parent Partnership for support. Your child needs an appropriate education and it sounds like this needs to be non-mainstream.

Mainstream schools are great for mainstream children, my experience of them for children with SEN is not good though. Thankfully my DS is now in a special school which focuses on his speech, language and communication problems.

Yes you are right....your child needs an education but sounds like he needs a different one from what's currently on offer.

My headteacher used to say that whilst you are entitled to an education, you are not entitled to it here.

Big fan of that saying. No problem with expulsion here.