Christianity and Halloween: is heaven really going to be full of "true Christians" moaning about how wrong Halloween is....

[m0therofdragons]

ISIS is wrong, Halloween is just kids having fun. It really doesn't matter where it originates from. Currently people seem to enjoy popping on a costume, spending time with the family carving pumpkins and eating sweets.

I'm Christian although it seems I'm a terrible one as dc aren't attending a "light party"- which appears to be many churches' way of making money out of Halloween, and we'll be giving trick or treaters sweets when they knock.
I can't help feeling heaven is going to be full of dull kill joys.

Why ironic BigD?

There are no pre-Christian Celts around to ask, they wrote little concerning their religious beliefs and practises. All we have is archeological evidence of their burials and structures, their art and some folk tales and songs along with what was written about them.

The Christian church has written records concerning beliefs and practises, we have the Bible, other Christian literature, archeological evidence, art, hymns and prayers, relics, what was written about them by other people (who weren't Christians) as well as Christians who we can ask about their own Christian beliefs in the current day.

Remember this a discussion concerning what is being celebrated at Halloween which concerns what establishing people's beliefs and religious practises were and are, since for many it is/was a religious festival.

Exactly Big the utter irony.

capsium Could you answer one question for me? Not exactly on topic, but you seem to know so much.

Name one single other contemporary source that records the existence of Jesus?

The answer can not be the bible as it is not contemporary. So many notable events someone other than Christians must have written about him surely?

Good luck finding that, you'll need lots of and to keep you going for the rest of your life.

Name one single other contemporary source that records the existence of Jesus?

That's not the point Caps is making. They're saying there is ample evidence of the religious practices and beliefs of the early Christian church, say 100AD to 500AD. Because there is. Aside from anything else, the first council of Nicea takes place in 325AD and is documented in excruciating detail.

None of that says the slightest thing about the validity of the beliefs or the accuracy of the stories told in the texts, but we know what those beliefs were and what texts were being discussed. There's little evidence to support the contents of the bible, but there is infinite evidence that texts containing that material were in circulation. Proving that a book with particular contents existed in 200AD doesn't say it's "true" in any useful sense, any more than owning a first edition of Harry Potter means that you know the postcode of Hogwarts, but it does help you understand who was reading what at the time.

That's not true for the Celts. The evidence for the beliefs and ceremonies of most pre-Roman northern European civilisations is indirect and sketchy. There's burials, some buildings, some artefacts: not a lot else. You would have to be very, very obtuse to try to claim we don't know about the religious practices of early Christians in great detail compared to the religious practices of the Celts, even though none of that means that any of their religions are "true".

I'm just trying to establish how to discern what the Celtic traditions talked about, on this thread, actually are based upon, scaredeycat. No one has been able to say very much at all.

The Christian church has a long tradition of recording Christian beliefs and practises. There are ancient writings, buildings, art and artefacts. There is a long history of traditions which carry on today. Less remains to tell us about the Celts believed. Are there any groups of people that have kept the original Celtic traditions and beliefs?

This is all. I am not attempting to analyse or compare to Christianity Celtic beliefs, at all much really, since I don't really have much of an idea of what they consist of. I was just asking the people, who posted about the Celtic 'origins' for Samhain, for more information.

Why does it matter if some Christians don't like Halloween? There are plenty of other festivals/events during the year, so having negative opinions about that particular one doesn't make them "killjoys".

^that should be 'Celtic 'origins' for Halloween', in my last post. Typo.

This is a good, if brief, look at Halloween from a historical, social and agricultural from Professor Ronald Hutton, whose books Station of the Sun and Triumph of the Moon are good source material for anyone seeking to look at the origins of neo-paganism in more depth, if anyone was still interested:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/28/halloween-more-than-trick-or-treat-origins

historical, social and agricultural perspective, sorry, typo.

I'm not arguing for religious superiority one way or another, btw, but Hutton is a very well-respected historian and particularly well-versed on these matters, given that he specialises in British folklore.

caps It's hard to have a discussion with someone with such little knowledge as you have of the social history of their own faith. TBH I simply don't have the time to explain the many changes in our way of worshiping in this country. A good start is BBC4, I found it very interesting myself, social history is such a fascinating subject.

All mainstream holidays are stolen pagan holidays in an effort to get pagans to convert over to Christianity. Christmas is same time as pagan winter holiday. Easter was take from Oestra, a fertility holiday (why do you think there's bunnies and chicks?). So you can't be against Halloween without being against Christmas.

Hell is a money making scam from the churches.

Objectively, God and the idea of hell so you can have a salvation is a very profitable business, whether it's actually true or not. It makes churches and preachers alike a lot of money. It's really not much different than when the Catholic church was selling indulgences if you think about it. To get to heaven, you need to go to church, to go to church you need to pay.

If there is a heaven, I'd imagine it would be full of genuinely good people who don't give a shit about silly things like buying into a salvation scam or dressing up in costumes to celebrate yet another pagan holiday taken under Christianity's wing. Just my opinion.

Scardeycat

caps It's hard to have a discussion with someone with such little knowledge as you have of the social history of their own faith. TBH I simply don't have the time to explain the many changes in our way of worshiping in this country. A good start is BBC4, I found it very interesting myself, social history is such a fascinating subject.

That's a bit strong. I was talking about what people know concerning Celtic beliefs, that is very little, compared to what is known of the Christian Faith, that is much more as it is more widely documented. Even Hutton acknowledges the 'reconstruction' of history regarding Celtic beliefs and practices.

My point is that it is possible to comment on the Christian history regarding Halloween celebrations, as it is well documented, but not so much with the Celtic history, as it is not so much. I am aware that Christian celebrations were arranged to take place at the same time of year, as Pagan ones, but, to my mind, this does not mean what is celebrated is, necessarily, without any doubt, Pagan in nature or originated in Pagan beliefs. To my mind what is celebrated is controlled by the celebrants themselves...

It's really not strong. You really are coming across as someone who has read the bible and very little else. Thus proving that you can't have a discussion with someone with so very little knowledge as you have of the social history of their own faith.

Scaredycat you really don't know me very well at all. You do not appear to be countering anything I have said in a meaningful way, either. If all you can do is resort to insulting me, I wonder if you actually have anything relevant, to what is being discussed, to say, at all.

I think part of the problen of discussing this with someone with little knowledge is that psychologically when peoples beliefs are challenged and even disproved instead of stop believing what people do is reaffirm them by saying something illogical and unfalsifiable such as

For me there are no origins, of anything, that exclude Him. This is according to my faith, the documented beliefs of church traditions, the Bible and my own sense of 'knowing'

There is proof of other beliefs and celebrations which have been copied by christians that preceed christianity yet you refuse to accept it. It doesnt make your belief any less just that actually what you are worship is an ancient pagan diety.

pineapple That was specifically in response to Songbird, of her knowledge of Pagan beliefs, saying,

I don't know how I know this stuff, I just do

It was a point of commonality. What is this, 'gang up against the Christian?'. Pah! It doesn't make your comment any more valid, how could you possibly have the authority to say you know better, than myself, what I worship?

I would never say i jsut 'know'. I take the time to do research. I also have been taught celtic practices from a high pristess who can trace her pagan lineage incredibly far back

Oh, right then pineapple. That authenticates it all does it? Does your 'high priestess' publish? You know, so we can all share her 'wisdom'...

I was trying to give you some advise so you might understand the subject better cap, wider reading/watching material than the bible with an open mind would help when discussing subjects round your beliefs. But you're still being rude like you have been throughout the thread.

Sorry I meant rude and defensive.

BigD I didn't. I shared a point of commonality regarding having a sense of 'knowing'.

I watch BBC4, already, scardeycat.

Wow a bit rude cap. I was just saying I research what i say and am happy to do more reading and research if i need to. I never took my priestesses word as gospel I researched it and came to my own conclusions.

Maybe thats the different you mock me for listening to a priestess when you take a vicar words at his word. Also my faith encourages me to read and study other faiths and lots of material and then come to my own conclusion regarding my beliefs whereas with yours its take what the bible says but dont listen to other faiths. If it contradicts the bible its wrong.

I don't celebrate Halloween in the same way I don't celebrate Valentine's day, because they have no meaning to me and just seem to be a marketing exercise.

I am religious, but I suspect many people, of various viewpoints on religion feel the same.