Christianity and Halloween: is heaven really going to be full of "true Christians" moaning about how wrong Halloween is....

[m0therofdragons]

ISIS is wrong, Halloween is just kids having fun. It really doesn't matter where it originates from. Currently people seem to enjoy popping on a costume, spending time with the family carving pumpkins and eating sweets.

I'm Christian although it seems I'm a terrible one as dc aren't attending a "light party"- which appears to be many churches' way of making money out of Halloween, and we'll be giving trick or treaters sweets when they knock.
I can't help feeling heaven is going to be full of dull kill joys.

[RivieraKid]

I think, regardless of their religious belief, people will have had a need to do certain activities, at certain times, in certain seasons.

Absolutely, I'd say that even with clocks we still have this need. Our lives may have become more efficiently regulated by modern culture but our souls still feel the need to mark the harvest, the bleak hard soil of the dark half of the year and the colourful hope of spring, no matter how or who we worship in the process

[capsium]

^ sorry for the repetition I thought I'd lost my first post.

[capsium]

I think, regardless of their religious belief, people will have had a need to do certain activities, at certain times, in certain seasons. Without clocks and calendars being readily available, ordinary people would have been able to use these activities to order their time and settle into a routine and rhythm of life. New converts to Christianity would have still had a need to demarcate their time, although their beliefs and practises were altered. The first Christians, would equally want to order their time in some way (which was also appropriate to their beliefs).

[capsium]

Equally you can see, regardless of religious belief, certain activities would take place at certain times of year, according to the season. People would have become used to these rhythms and without clocks or written calendars, available to the majority of people it will have helped them order their time. It is easy to appreciate how new converts to Christianity would have still had a need to demarcate their year, although the nature of their belief and practises will have altered.

[RivieraKid]

Of course, with this marking the end of the harvest and the killing of livestock and salting of their meat, it wouldn't surprise me if the Winter Nights did begin as a ritual mass slaughter and spiritual preparations for what would always have been great hardship to follow. Certainly the colder months could not have been said to be anyone's favourite time of year back then!

[RivieraKid]

My own comments were simply in relation to claims of the Celtic 'origins' being the 'true origins' of Halloween, which I felt were impossible to establish because not enough is known of Celtic beliefs and practises.

Of course, and let's not also forget that the Dia de Muertos with its origins in indigenous Aztec religion, on the other side of the world, is believed to have originally been celebrated at the beginning of summer and now takes place at this time of year as well. This is interesting when you compare it with:

'It is commonly asserted that the feast was the pagan festival of the dead. In reality feasts to commemorate the dead, where they can be found in ancient Europe, were celebrated by both pagans and early Christians, between March and May'

It actually seems more likely that the ancient Pagan festivals and their elusive rites were moved to this time of year to be subsumed within the Feast of All Saints. Whatever may have been celebrated in its place at this particular time I don't think we will ever know.

[capsium]

^ re. 'older Pagan ones' I just have to point out, for clarity, that I am including OT practises, in terms of worshipping God, in with the Christian here, since many Christian practises reference them.

However, as far as I can gather, there are also many similarities between the way God was worshipped in the OT and Pagan practises, so establishing 'origins' of these practises is IMO moot.

[capsium]

It is my opinion that recon religious practices, mostly polytheistic in nature, are no less meaningful than those monotheistic practices which have undergone substantial schisms and forged many breakaway branches within their own tradition within the last couple of thousand years. Reforging an ancient religious practice within our modern world doesn't make it any less relevant to its followers - as the fast-growing number of 'out' pagans in the UK alone would suggest.

Riviera I can completely understand your perspective on this. My own comments were simply in relation to claims of the Celtic 'origins' being the 'true origins' of Halloween, which I felt were impossible to establish because not enough is known of Celtic beliefs and practises.

I think it really is up to the individual which particular path they follow and the meaning to which they give various days.

Here we completely agree, Riviera

It is simple enough to understand that in the interests of a more harmonious cultural syncretism, several Christian holidays fall on older, Pagan ones

I am not absolutely clear that the Pagan holidays did predate the Christian celebrations in every case (All Saint's was already being celebrated when Bede reported on the Pagan celebrations that took place at Samhain.) I would have to look at more Historical evidence to be clearer concerning this.

but without definitive source material, we can never be entirely sure how those holidays were exactly celebrated.

Completely agree.

[RivieraKid]

I should also clarify that I'm really speaking about European Pagan Recon traditions, of course Pagan religions in other parts of the world, such as Vodu, Vodoun, and others, have less of a recon aspect to their practice. There are several practices, such as Hoodoo and some branches of Italian witchcraft, that are a blend of Pagan and Catholic traditions.

[RivieraKid]

and for those seeking a more in-depth study. Seriously, my keyboard skills are in the ditch today

[RivieraKid]

Even Hutton acknowledges the 'reconstruction' of history regarding Celtic beliefs and practices.

Most Neo-Pagan practices, if not all of them, are recon in nature (I know some branches of Wicca often say they are practising an unbroken tradition but this has been debunked by most serious scholars, including Hutton).

It is my opinion that recon religious practices, mostly polytheistic in nature, are no less meaningful than those monotheistic practices which have undergone substantial schisms and forged many breakaway branches within their own tradition within the last couple of thousand years. Reforging an ancient religious practice within our modern world doesn't make it any less relevant to its followers - as the fast-growing number of 'out' pagans in the UK alone would suggest.

I think it really is up to the individual which particular path they follow and the meaning to which they give various days. It is simple enough to understand that in the interests of a more harmonious cultural syncretism, several Christian holidays fall on older, Pagan ones, but without definitive source material, we can never be entirely sure how those holidays were exactly celebrated. Hence, the nature of Pagan Recon. Hutton is a particularly good source for those looking to understand the origins of many different sacred holidays for those seeking a more in-depth study.

[capsium]

Ah, thanks for the explanation, Songbird. My response probably denotes that I do not denote what is spiritual as 'wishy washy' as my experience of faith and spirituality is best described as a 'strong' or 'powerful' one.

I get that sources become patchy. Once upon a time (ahem... 2 decades ago) I studied myth, legend and folklore along with old English texts and oral traditions as part of my degree, so I am not completely unfamiliar with all the material. (I can even write in runes!) I wish I had studied more history but through reading around my subject, for contextual interpretation and for interest, I have come to study some of it.

I am genuinely interested in our early History and will quite happily devour any information concerning the Celts, which still seem fairly elusive to me. I love a mystery, story telling, folktales and music. I feel they tell us a lot about humanity. Equally I love my Christian Faith and for some of the same reasons, although it is more than this to me, as I experience a greater spiritual connection here.

[SongBird16]

Cap, I'm a bit late returning to this but wanted to clarify that I didn't mean 'just know this stuff' in a wishy washy spiritual way, I meant that it is part of our history and something that I have read about and learned about over the years. I don't remember my sources, but 'just know' like I know when WW2 started.

[FithColumnist]

"Paganism" is an umbrella term for a number of different belief systems. It's a subset of the term "religion", not something "akin" to it.

However, neither modern pagan religions nor the pre-christian pagan religions have much to do with Hallowe'en. The Christian festival of All Hallows Eve first crystallises in the early Middle Ages. The connection between ghosts, spirits and the dead and the festival does not seem to be shared with the pagan Irish Samhain.

[capsium]

pineapple who says I take any vicar at their word? I asked (several times) if someone knew more about Celtic traditions but no one came up with a great deal of material. Granted, there was the Hutton article. However he talks of having to 'reconstruct' the history and neglects to mention All Saint's had begin in 609 (but was celebrated on a different day), that is before Bede was reporting the Celtic practises, which Pope Gregory IV moved in 835 to coincide with Samhain. So what of the Halloween practises are Celtic in origin still remains elusive. Does all your research have anything to add?

As I mentioned before, my overriding point is not particularly controversial. This is, people self define what and how they celebrate. Tbh I think it is more 'rude' to say you are better able to define, what other people worship and celebrate, than them themselves.

[Holstein]

I know paganism isn't devil worship, that's why I mentioned it separately. The occult is quite broad, i would consider it includes devil worship, magic, sorcery, necromancy, fortune telling, witchcraft, daemon summoning, spiritualism, voodun, witch doctoring, etc. I'm sure there's plenty more I've never heard of. I would class paganism as a belief system, akin to a religion.
Vampires, zombies, lycans etc are more mythical I suppose but I don't think they're things to.encourage children to play as any more than I think marvel heroes are. (Marvel characters are all dark, quite anti-heroes really, I don't consider th m suitable for three year olds, for example. Perhaps Captain America is an exception, but not read many with him in)
Again- I'm kind of on my own in western society on that one! Doesn't bother me.

[pineappleshortbread]

Paganism isnt devil worship. The devil is a christian concept and not something pagans believe in.

Witchcraft spirits and the occult isnt evil or devil worship and if you were atheist it wouldnt bother you.

Btw im pagan and a witch but not wiccan. Wicca is a tad unhealthy not everything is good and pure and i dont believe in 'white witches'. I believ in a grey magic you need both light and dark its a balance.

[Holstein]

In what way would devil worship be healthy?
I get that pagan witchcraft in the UK is wiccan and therefore religious, and focussed on nature and cycles of life and death. I don't think witchcraft in other areas of the world is as benign.
I am surprised to read about Muslims celebrating Halloween, as I would have thought they had to reject devils, ghosts, djinns, ifrits etc.as evil doers.

[pineappleshortbread]

Why is the occult unhealthy?

[Holstein]

I'm atheist, and privately think all religion is dangerous nonsense. However, I don't celebrate hallowe'en, in fact actively dislike hallowe'en; I think it glorifies the occult and I don't think that's a healthy thing to encourage.

I am very surprised at how big hallowe'en is in the USA, when there are instances of books about witches, magic etc being banned from school libraries, yet dressing as zombies, vampires, and witches is encouraged. I just don't get it.

It wasn't celebrated in my area when I was a child, so I suppose it doesn't bring back fond memories for me.

[IPityThePontipines]

I don't celebrate Halloween in the same way I don't celebrate Valentine's day, because they have no meaning to me and just seem to be a marketing exercise.

I am religious, but I suspect many people, of various viewpoints on religion feel the same.

[pineappleshortbread]

Wow a bit rude cap. I was just saying I research what i say and am happy to do more reading and research if i need to. I never took my priestesses word as gospel I researched it and came to my own conclusions.

Maybe thats the different you mock me for listening to a priestess when you take a vicar words at his word. Also my faith encourages me to read and study other faiths and lots of material and then come to my own conclusion regarding my beliefs whereas with yours its take what the bible says but dont listen to other faiths. If it contradicts the bible its wrong.

[capsium]

I watch BBC4, already, scardeycat.

[capsium]

BigD I didn't. I shared a point of commonality regarding having a sense of 'knowing'.