Christianity and Halloween: is heaven really going to be full of "true Christians" moaning about how wrong Halloween is....

[m0therofdragons]

ISIS is wrong, Halloween is just kids having fun. It really doesn't matter where it originates from. Currently people seem to enjoy popping on a costume, spending time with the family carving pumpkins and eating sweets.

I'm Christian although it seems I'm a terrible one as dc aren't attending a "light party"- which appears to be many churches' way of making money out of Halloween, and we'll be giving trick or treaters sweets when they knock.
I can't help feeling heaven is going to be full of dull kill joys.

[ArmchairTraveller]

Hideous things have been done in warfare, with or without a religious bias. Remember that the Celts had no written history, and history is written by the victors. So Tacitus and co had good reasons for putting a twist on their recording of events.

[capsium]

Armchair How do you twist the archeological evidence of ritual human sacrifice?

As I have said, little is known about the actual beliefs of the Celts and Druids. But we can see evidence of some of their practises, which would be considered violent and brutal today.

[pineappleshortbread]

I never said they were more peace loving. In fact they were just as brutal but they never pretended not to be.

Some pagans did sacrifice in ancient history but barely any do in modern practices which is what some people still believe and thats disturbing.

[pineappleshortbread]

We also cant impose modern laws and moral standings on ancient times. What we consider violent and brutal today was the norm and culturally acceptable then.

We now have science to allow us to know that sacrificing animals and people does not effect the whether however they didnt know that thousands of years ago.

[capsium]

pineapple there are still religions which include ritualistic sacrifices of animals, which could be considered Pagan, as the do not identify as being Christian. So this is not just ancient history.

I don't think people who identified as Christians and carried out brutal, violent, acts did necessarily pretend they didn't. Just that, by all reports, according to their particular interpretation of Christianity, they felt these acts were necessary. The same really as Pagans carrying out brutal acts. Not that I agree, at all, with brutal, violent acts, as I take love, as the central message of my own Christian Faith.

[pineappleshortbread]

I never said there werent still faiths that practiced sacrifice just that these were a lot fewer and are not the general norm or paganism and witchcraft.

Its not that christians pretended they didnt just that they said god forgives all and that they should love and forgive everyone yet carried out witch burnings. Slightly hypocritical imo.

[capsium]

pineapple I don't know the figures re. Ritualistic sacrifices, pineapple but know it is still quite common in places such as Haiti.

If you are attempting to compare Neo-Pagan beliefs to what Pagans believed in pre-Christian societies, with regards to Halloween, I just think this is impossible. You don't identify with what is known from historical evidence of Pagan ritualistic practises, the rest is just not really known (as far as I can tell) so why would you insist on the 'Pagan origins of Halloween' being what is, in truth, being celebrated?

Re. forgiveness, what option would you prefer for those who have done wrong? Vengeance?

[pineappleshortbread]

Pagans and witches dont need forgiving as they havent done anything wrong.

I never insisted on the pagan origins being what is celebrated just that that was were halloween originated.

[pineappleshortbread]

I think i would go with dont forgive those who dont need it. Don't punish those who have done nothing wrong. Dont forgive those who dont deserve it and dont forgive if you dont mean it. There is nothing wrong with vengeance depending on the situation.

[capsium]

How do you establish how something originated, pineapple?

If a different Christian celebration happens on the same day as a Pagan celebration it does not mean that the Christian originated from the Pagan. It just means that two different celebrations happen on the same day.

You can't even tell me, with any surety, what exactly the Celts celebrated on Samhain and don't appear to incorporate what we know, from the historical evidence available, of their rituals, into your own, so what is the importance of this 'origin'?

[pineappleshortbread]

You dont know what i incoporate into my own because i never told you.

We know jesis wasnt born in december so the coincidence between christmas and yule is just too strange.

Plus if the two celebrations happen on the same day and use the same rituals and the same beliefs then logically the newer one evolved and originated from the older one thus christian festivals evolved from pagan ones.

You cant establish how something truly originated you can just go back as far as you can and the oldest one is the closet to the original.

[ArmchairTraveller]

'Armchair How do you twist the archeological evidence of ritual human sacrifice?

As I have said, little is known about the actual beliefs of the Celts and Druids. But we can see evidence of some of their practises, which would be considered violent and brutal today.'

I don't, and some of the ways that pre-Christian faiths interacted with their gods were violent and brutal.
But so were the auto de fe and the inquisition and the Cathar persecutions.

[Ricardian]

How do you establish how something originated, pineapple?

A question Christians would do well not to ask, given the paucity of evidence for most of their faith.

[pineappleshortbread]

Nicely said Ricardian

[ArmchairTraveller]

Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Baha'i, and various other faiths and belief systems don't have the policy of active recruitment and spreading the message that Christianity and Islam have.
It's one of the things that believers were told to do; go and spread the good news.
Which is why they are told to piss off more often than other faiths who don't feel the need to share in the same way.

[capsium]

Ricardian well how do you establish origins? Any better ideas?

pineapple so you believe Christmas celebrations incorporate much of Yule celebrations. Hmm...

"A description of pagan Yule practices is provided (notes are Hollander's own):

It was ancient custom that when sacrifice was to be made, all farmers were to come to the heathen temple and bring along with them the food they needed while the feast lasted. At this feast all were to take part of the drinking of ale. Also all kinds of livestock were killed in connection with it, horses also; and all the blood from them was called hlaut [ sacrificial blood ], and hlautbolli, the vessel holding the blood; and hlautteinar, the sacrificial twigs [ aspergills ]. These were fashioned like sprinklers, and with them were to be smeared all over with blood the pedestals of the idols and also the walls of the temple within and without; and likewise the men present were to be sprinkled with blood. But the meat of the animals was to be boiled and served as food at the banquet. Fires were to be lighted in the middle of the temple floor, and kettles hung over them. The sacrificial beaker was to be borne around the fire, and he who made the feast and was chieftain, was to bless the beaker as well as all the sacrificial meat.[10]" ( en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule )

[headinhands]

That extract about Yule: it reads like something straight out of the OT!

[pineappleshortbread]

Okay wrong on so many levels. Firstly you cant use Wikipedia for information. Secondly the use of the word Heathen automatically tells you that the account is biased and thus maybe inaccurate.

Christmas trees have pagan origins. As does the virgin birth. Feasting and drinking and having fires for the winter all things we do at christmas.

[Flashbangandgone]

headinhand

It's easy to attack fundamentalist Christianity as you have. Your mistake in my view is to assume that Christianity is necessarily fundamentalist. You're attacking a straw man....

Many Christians are all too well aware of the issues you raise, and have developed a more nuanced belief system as a result. All too often atheists seem to assume a false dichotomy.... Either you believe the Bible as literal truth, you believe absolutely everything to do with God and religion is rubbish... And with it the belief there is no room for doubt, uncertainty, recognising that we might be part of something bigger than we can hope to understand.

[ArmchairTraveller]

So they killed animals and ate them, used the blood to thank the gods and bless with, and presumably stored the rest of the meat to eat later. What are you going to have for your Christ-mass feast, whilst you sing carols in praise of His birth?

[capsium]

pineapple so tell me how you know it is actually wrong. How was Yule originally celebrated, in pre-Christian times and how do you know?

There is a Christian origin to the Christmas tree, with the account of St. Boniface. Feasting and having fires is also common across many cultures.

[pineappleshortbread]

But why celebrate the birth of a man on the wrong day?

I know its inaccurate because no historian in their right mind wpuld take something which is clearly bias as pure fact without consulting other sources. Also no one would take Wikipedia as fact because its user edited. I could add that the pope was a flying pig born in atlantis wouldn't make it true. I have studied history and know how to analyse sources maybe you should learn that before believing the first source you find.

[capsium]

Armchair my point is that people, ultimately, self define how and what they celebrate. All this talk of Pagan Celtic origins is pointless because a) We do not know much of what the Celts believed and b) what we do know, of their ritualistic practise, from archeological evidence, bears little relation to what many Neo-Pagans would appear to identify with.

[TheExMotherInLaw]

I am a staunch atheist, but I do enjoy the fun of Halloween, Yule, etc. It's only harmful if you let it be.
Below is a link to a wonderful blog I follow by an American Christian - he talks SO much sense.
johnpavlovitz.com/2014/10/31/christian-stop-being-scared-of-halloween/