Christianity and Halloween: is heaven really going to be full of "true Christians" moaning about how wrong Halloween is....

[m0therofdragons]

ISIS is wrong, Halloween is just kids having fun. It really doesn't matter where it originates from. Currently people seem to enjoy popping on a costume, spending time with the family carving pumpkins and eating sweets.

I'm Christian although it seems I'm a terrible one as dc aren't attending a "light party"- which appears to be many churches' way of making money out of Halloween, and we'll be giving trick or treaters sweets when they knock.
I can't help feeling heaven is going to be full of dull kill joys.

I'm Wiccan, we celebrated Samhain last night. We ate, drank and had a load of friends round. We didn't sacrifice any animals though we were far too drunk for that nonsence

Origins are important as they show us where we come from and why we believe the things we do and behave the way we do.

You cant ignore the history of a belief because it contradicts what you believe or is no longer practiced the same way.

Pineapple Romans 14:5-6 says,

"5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks." ( KJV)

So it is part of the Christian Faith to celebrate on whichever days we choose.

As for telling me the Wiki page is wrong (although it does state sources that anyone can look up if they wish), you haven't told me what is right. How do you know what the Celts or pre-Christian Saxons believed? What are the sources?

I dont need to point out whats right just how yours is inaccurate. Its not inaccurate because thats what i believe its inaccirate in an academic way as well.

Why do christians feel the need to preach and convert others and tell everyone who isnt christian that their beliefs are wrong?

When did it be some a 'thing' that Christians objected to Halloween? When I was a kid the only ones who objected would be the wee free killjoys but not because of any satanic references - just objecting to people having fun.

I used to work for the church and no, Halloween isnt a no-no there.

But there are always some who object to anything. We had a hullabaloo over a magician coming to an event held in the church to keep the little ones entertained, as a member of the congregation decided that this was sorcery and shouldn't be allowed.

pineapple I didn't comment on the rightness or wrongness of your beliefs. I merely asked how you know what the Celts actually believed since you claim Halloween has it's origins within the Celtic celebration of Samhain. I'm genuinely interested in our history, I thought you might know something I didn't. It perplexes me that people talk so confidently of 'Celtic origins' when much about what the Celts believed remains a mystery.

BigDorrit comparatively, to Celtic beliefs, Christians have strong church traditions and a documented history, as well as preserved ancient (written) holy texts.

Probably

I never said celtic origin thats what you said i said pagan origin.

You really think holy texts counts as proof of your beliefs? The content of the bible was decided by the roman govenment not all texts were included. They picked what they wanted.

Plus what was written by the authors of the bible could have been ramblings whilst they were high for all we know. We have no idea if any of these people existed. We have more evidence for ancient egypt culture than we do for the existence of jesus.

pineapple you posted this:

" www.history.com/topics/halloween/history-of-halloween

Theres plenty of information on samhain practices and rituals. As for other practices take mass for example there was an ancient roman ceremony for soldiers where they worshiped a pagan god and they drank wine ate bread at an altar. Things such as the virgin birth had already been told in ancient egypt. Barely anything in Christianity is unique to christianity."

The link you posted says this:

"It is thought to have originated with the ancient Celtic festival of Samhain, when people would light bonfires and wear costumes to ward off roaming ghosts."

You were highlighting Pagan 'origins' of Halloween and I took it that you were using the link that you posted to support your claim.

There are two theories about why Christians celebrate Christmas on the 25th December. One is that the early Christians tagged their celebrations onto pagan ones such as Saturnalia which was happening at the end of December. Another is that Jesus conception and death were on the same day (25th March or 6th April) depending on which calendar you use so his birth is 9 months on from that date giving you 25th December in the West and 6th January in the East.

This article gives more detail.
www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/how-december-25-became-christmas/

You really think holy texts counts as proof of your beliefs? The content of the bible was decided by the roman govenment not all texts were included. They picked what they wanted.

I didn't say they were 'proof' of my beliefs, pineapple, my point was rather that the nature of Christian beliefs is much better documented than Celtic, Pre-Christian Saxon or Druidic beliefs.

Documentation doesnt equal fact.

Also how can you believe a religion whose holy text says that according to the word of god the world was created in 7 days with animals people and plants being made on different days when science has proved that evolution is how life occured.

Surely this tells you that when the people who wrote that said god spoke to them they were lying else god would have told them about evolution and dinosaurs.

There is plenty of documentation from greece egypt and rome which all celebrated different festivals on what would become "christian" holidays.

pineapple the credulity of my religious beliefs is not really relevant to this thread. The origins of Halloween celebrations and what is actually being celebrated on Halloween is.

My point is that, no matter what Pagan festivals are celebrated on the same day or at the same time of year, this does not mean the Christian celebration of All Hallow's Eve originated from them, just that it is celebrated at the same time.

Not much at all is know about what the Celts believed, so comments concerning Samhain tell us very little, in terms of how to analyse the meaning behind any ritualistic practise within Halloween celebrations in relation to Celtic belief. There are comparisons to be made with certain Christian beliefs (because the documentation of church beliefs and traditions is there).

My conclusion is not really that radical, that is people ultimately self define what and how they celebrate. The only cause for offence, apparently felt by some posters, as I see it, seems to be that I actually point out that not much is known of Celtic beliefs, so not much of a case can be made for Halloween celebrations originating out of Samhain, and that there are some Christian origins for the festival.

The story of creation in the Bible is a myth.
The Bible was not written by God.
Only a minority of Christians read the Bible literally.
Christianity and science are not opposing belief systems.

Most debates on these issues go south pretty quickly on MN but given the shockingly poor state of RS teaching in the UK it is worth remembering the points above as there are world views which are vocal on MN that want you to believe that all Christians take the Bible literally ie, are fundamentalists and that science and religion are at odds with each other.

One of the best sources for pagan and Christian festivals in the UK is Ronald Hutton's 'Stations of the Sun.'

Capsium - contrary to popular belief we actually know quite a lot about Celtic religion and festivals, from archeological sites, from inscriptions, from mainly Roman texts.

I daresay historians are able to use these sources, and others throughout the last couple of thousand years, to build up a picture of how our modern Halloween celebrations evolved.

Pope Gregory's famous edict does rather prove that it was policy to replace pagan festivals with handy Christian alternatives - if they worship a tree do not cut it down, but consecrate it to Christ and continue worshipping it etc.

Songbird interesting but do you have any comment, definitively, on how Halloween practises today could be said to be originated from the Celtic beliefs surrounding Samhain?

Yes, Christians had their festivals at the same time as Pagan ones but this does not mean the nature of what was being celebrated originated out of Pagan beliefs.

As far as I can see, there are similar ritualistic features between Pagans and the system of sacrifices made in the OT, except human sacrifices to God were not required. There is much common holy symbolism in relation to water, trees and mountains for example between the Bible and what has been established of Pagan religious practise. This similarity does blur the issue somewhat regarding how beliefs and practices originated.

This is why I think that the most pertinent aspect, regarding celebrations and festivities, is that people have a habit of self defining what and how they celebrate.

Capsium - Samhain originally marked the day that the dead could mingle with the living on their way to the underworld, with people sacrificing and lighting fires to keep them away.

When the church introduced All Saints Day as an alternative it didn't take off, so they later introduced All Souls Day as a day to pray for the souls of the dead, being closer in concept to the original pagan festival.

The old traditions lived on, but now their superstitions, deities and supernatural creatures were considered evil by the church.

Instead of sacrifice, people left out food and drink to appease these spirits.

In time people began to dress to impersonate these creatures in return for food and drink, I think it was called guising, and is the origin of trick or treating.

Songbird what do you mean "it didn't take off"? All Saint's / All Hallow's Day and Eve is still celebrated by churches today, within the Christian Faith.

Disentangling what is actually Christian and what is Pagan, in origin, is no simple matter where there are similarities / crossover regarding some aspects of spiritual belief / practise.

To my mind the simplest way, and the most meaningful, is to ask celebrants what the festivities mean to them.

Songbird out of interest, what are your sources regarding what Celts believed and what rituals they performed at Samhain?

There is very little written evidence, as far as I am aware, all we have is burials, paintings and some (apparently) sacrificial remains and some structures which appear to have astrological / religious significance.

Are you talking about evidence from folklore? Superstition? Folk songs?

Songbird As an aside, certain bird species are found to give gifts and have courtship 'rituals', do you believe this has a certain type of Pagan religious significance?

Capsium -

All Saints Day, as a day to celebrate the saints, did not effectively replace Samhain in the minds of the pagan population.

It was several centuries later that All Souls Day was introduced as a day to celebrate the souls of the dead.

I don't know how I know this stuff, I just do. I daresay there's plenty online if you're interested.

Just because the celts didn't keep written records doesn't mean that written records weren't kept about them.

SongBird

I don't know how I know this stuff, I just do

Maybe there is something inherent in you? (as ritualistic behaviours are passed through the generations of other species)

Equally, as a Christian, I believe God, whom I worship, has been here from the beginning, of time (or even before time). For me there are no origins, of anything, that exclude Him. This is according to my faith, the documented beliefs of church traditions, the Bible and my own sense of 'knowing'.

I know there were written records about the Celts but there is nothing which gets inside a culture better than a first hand source.

Regarding what someone believes, I think you really do need that first hand source to even begin to more fully appreciate it.