To ask you about 'White privilege'

[InTheBox]

I'm wondering if any of you know about this or have ever experienced it?

I've been reading a lot about this over the past weeks and I'm still working it out. I've only seen in the US, well actually on Twitter, the 'criming while white' hashtag which whilst humorous really spoke some home truths. I'm familiar with mixed race individuals being fetishised (I have one myself) but not necessarily earning privilege because of it iyswim. I'm not starting the thread to be goady but I'd be interested in your thoughts.

That's the point tobysmum77 - you made an assumption based on the way he spoke. You didn't do so in a way that was detrimental to him, but there are definitely times when people are disadvantaged because of the assumptions others make from how they speak.

Everyone makes assumptions, that's totally normal. It's what you do with those assumptions that is the issue.

Yeah but it was only ever in a mental picture kind of way that we all do in one way or another when we have never met someone? Bit like when you imagine someone to be a strapping 6ft8 with a big beard and he turns out to be 5'2 and 8 stone.

Yes, that's fine. But the problem comes when people's mental pictures stray into unconscious bias - you didn't do it, other people most definitely do.

Not read the entire thread. But I do sometimes get the feeling that white privilege is 'wealthy white people privilege' which wealthy white people tend to assume applies to all white people because they have it themselves.

There have been stories the press this week about how white working class boys are underachieving, there have been incidents like Rotherham where poor white girls have not had equal access to the justice systems because their race, and the race of those attacking them, has meant that they haven't been prioritised in the justice system.

I tend to think that privilege has a lot more to do with money than it does with race. I suspect people who live in leafy suburbs with good schools tend to experience a lot more so called 'white privilege' than people who live on council estates in northern towns.

I can trump white privilege with white middle aged posh and not attractive available privilege.
I don't get perved at, I get fantastic service because I can write a strong but polite complaint letter and in shops. And in shops and I don't get mithered about how well I've done as I work in a sector where women like me are the norm.

xPost Booyaka
Much of my privilege is rooted in my age and experience rather than my skin colour.

'White' privileges has nothing to do with money. It's comparing like with like. If a poor white boy scrubbed up and put on a nice suit and went for a job against a poor black boy who did likewise, the bias will still be in favour of the poor white boy.

What you're talking about is 'class'.

So a white Irish or Polish person in smart clothes in a shop might be treated better than someone who is black in identical clothes? Well that is so simple we can understand it and I hope that does not happen particularly in London where so many people are not white. Where live in London I am in a minority because I am white. I am sure I am not discriminated because of it.

On the company brochure point that reminds me of a meeting where clients showed me their new brochure. They are a Saudi company. Every single worker was featured across its pages. They were 100% male.

Deo
"Where live in London I am in a minority because I am white. I am sure I am not discriminated because of it."
My experience is that I'm positively favoured in that situation.

As a non white person in London, I can confirm that negative treatment does indeed happen in shops, libraries, restaurants, bars, doctors' surgeries, universities, job interviews etc in a way that my white friends simply do not experience. I worked in recruitment and saw it happen completely illegally of course, but people just do not believe that people in positions of power would be biased in this way, as it's against the law, so it never gets resolved.

I have a white, middle class, educated male friend who simply would not believe I would come across discrimination, and if I did it was just the odd crazy racist and I should be able to just brush it off. He, well meaningly but somewhat naively believed this, until he got a black girlfriend and witnessed first hand how differently she is treated compared to his previous (white) girlfriend. He kind of thought "well I'm not racist, I'm sure not many other people are".

So a white Irish or Polish person in smart clothes in a shop might be treated better than someone who is black in identical clothes?

Exactly. They may discriminate against an Irish or Polish man but will definitely favour both over a black person of equal status.

The other key thing people often forget it, with an Irish or Polish person with identical status, dressing etc no one can tell from a mile off who the Irish or polish guy is out of 100 people. The black person is spotted immediately and the bias sets in well before you've even got close enough to have a dialogue.

I know people will argue that Irish people have xyz feautures etc, but black features are the most distinctive. No one stops drinking their beer because an Irish lady walked in....and no one at an interview gulps when they say next! and you walk in.

Nobody stares at a Polish ladies hair and asks her how she will style it appropriately for a corporate meeting....!

Yes, the issue of class overlies the race issue. Always.

I don't think being Irish is in any way comparable at all! If you're put in a lower place than your own 'place' a bit in the UK, you can always return to 'the mother ship' where your original place in the social hierarchy will be restored, with a few active service stripes for having lived abroad briefly. That's kudos. So you go from being another 'Irish immigrant in the UK'' to being another middle class student returns, in the click of one airplane ticket. 49 euro and the bus back to Malahide. Bingo. Middle class again.

I think that the British classify all (catholic nations) Irish, Italian and Polish people as working class, and all protestant nations, Scandinavians, French and German as middle! REGARDLESS of any 'background checks'.. Not that it matters excessively. Because you can over turn class perceptions if they are erroneous but a prejudice based on skin colour is a real barrier.

once I went to Leicester Square with my best friend. We decided to go to one of the pubs/ night Cubs a round 6pm and doorman who was black tried to stop us from going in. " girls, I don't think you would want to be in there". My friend and I looked at each other and just pushed our way in. Our assumption was from experience of Being stopped from going into clubs is that he was trying to do his job by not letting us in.

Later on, we found out it was a male gay club. We could not stop laughing because we had called him a prick for acting the way he did. Not to his face. It's a shame we didn't apologise to him.

I would assume a few black people would make these assumptions too and not look at the circumstances around the situation.

OH that happened to me in covent garden debrianna. we walked past him, despite his advice. I felt cross that he hadn't just spelled it out, loud and loud.

They do have signs outside. I only learnt about it when I told someone about what happened. They asked if I had seen the sign out side and I said no. From what I have been is that they all do or most.

Sorry for diverting the topic.

I think when this kind of thing still happens in 2015 www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/34395720/nightclub-protest-over-rejecting-dark-and-overweight-women, it's not a huge leap of logic for a black person refused entry to wonder if it's because they are black.

When I have been refused entry and politely ask why, I'm never told "because it's a gay club, sweetheart". It's usually because they clearly don't want my type in their venue, but my white friends are fine.

abanico I read that too. I found it even worse that the women had been asked to line up at the wall opposite so management could 'inspect' them. I think certain clubs employ a sort of quota system, in that, they will only allow a certain number of ethnic minorities and once that quota is reached they'll refuse others. Having said, and a slight derailing of my thread - another thing this flagged up was the inclination to prefer lighter skinned women over darker skinned women.

I believe it, and you can bet the more attractive lighter skinned women are the ones that get in.

Believe me, I ALWAYS look at the circumstances around a situation. I'm the one that's always telling family to stop assuming race is the cause of every failure and look within themselves.

But over the years I have had to concede through experience that most are racially motivated.

Absolutely agree with you both @abanico and @inthebox. From when I used to live in London, nights out was a complicated thing. I think a lot of people do it without even thinking about it when they decide where they go on a night out. You choose where you will be accepted.

I released that I always got in to places I was denied access if I went on my own. We would meet inside the clubs rather than before hand.
Groups of black women are seen as a threat and intimidating. A white person said that to me me once. They thought they were being very nice by pointing it out. I learned from that and changed tactics and it worked.

From experience the difference between the uk and America is that in the uk people will not say it to your face. The law stops that.

Racial discrimination in employment (and most other things) is illegal in the US too. It happens, of course, but employers will not say it to someone's face without experiencing a high risk of legal repercussions.

I am sure it happens. My son was saying one boy in his class with very dark skin (sri lankan) makes jokes about his skin colour being so dark (only my son is white in the class and everyone else is black/Asian and apparently the Asian boys suggest lighter skin is best - is that based on Indian castes? ).

Yes,someone suggested because I live in a bit of London which is well over 6 - 80% not white that I woudl be advantaged thereas I'm white. I suppose that may be so although I don't see Asian shop keepers particularly bending over backwards to treat me better because I'm white. I do notice now when I go back to places like Northumberland or other almost 100% white areas or even last week at meetings in the City of London the difference. Suddenly I will find myself in a place where most people are like I am. I am rarely in such a situation. It is a bit like I had moved continents without moving. I wouldn't live where I do if I were racist and it feels more cultural difference than much to do with skin colour.

apparently the Asian boys suggest lighter skin is best - is that based on Indian castes?

IME it can be, yes. If you read asian matchmaking ads you'll see comments reflecting this preference, suggesting that some believe a lighter skin somehow implies "better bred"

Debbriana I just love the mistaken visit to the gay club Is it just me, or is anyone else seeing the Blue Oyster Bar scene from Police Academy??!!

Good explanation from Buffy there.

White privilege is one dimension. For any particular circumstance it may or may not be the most relevant dimension. But it does exist.