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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think people in decent jobs don't realise how hard it is to get a second crappy job..

264 replies

ssd · 28/10/2015 08:13

I keep seeing comments on the tax credits threads about tc claimants needing to work more, like its that easy.

I can imagine if you have kept up your job since having kids due to either being able to afford childcare or having that and a mix of free family help, then you will be earning a decent enough wage and there might be overtime at your organisation, or at the very least you will be on set hours/days...so if you wanted overtime you'd know when you were available to work.

I can imagine thousands on tax credits arent in this position. I work part time and have been trying to get a full time job, or at least another part time job that would fit in with the job I have.

Its bloody impossible and trust me, I'm trying!!

Full time jobs are very rare, round here its all part time job requiring full time flexibility...so they offer you 20 hours a week and expect you to be free all week to fit around them, this makes it impossible to have 2 part time jobs

So for every poster saying "work more", please consider this isnt as easy as you'd imagine.

OP posts:
SolidGoldBrass · 29/10/2015 21:51

Very true, Jeepers.

ssd · 29/10/2015 22:12

I think you've been in my workplace, jeepers.

I work for £6.70 an hour in catering and its absolutely back breaking work, no breaks, no seats, hot, tiring, exhausting, relentless...then the 2 arseholes men who do the office work, saunter into the kitchen every day at 1pm saying "oh are you busy"? with a smirk, and saunter away with a lovely plate of food when I've been in hours and haven't so much as had a cup of tea......

OP posts:
HelenaDove · 29/10/2015 22:23

Did the weekly shop today and have found out that one of the supermarkets is taking on Xmas temps for only THREE WEEKS this year. It can take tax credits six weeks or more to sort out so this kind of job would only be of use to someone with a partner already in work.

HelenaDove · 29/10/2015 22:34

YY Seahorses i remember seeing jobs advertised as £1.50 an hour / £50 a week in Jobcentres in the 90s.

They already get around it with zero hours contracts.

barefootzenhippy · 30/10/2015 01:18

Apologies if someone has already mentioned this - I've only quickly skimmed through the thread but while workfare exists companies will never pay anywhere near what people actually need to live on.

Mistigri · 30/10/2015 06:16

As a Tory MP pointed out in the commons debate yesterday, a second job isn't the solution anyway.

Because of the very high withdrawal rate, someone losing £30 a week might need to do 15 extra hours/ week just to make that up.

ssd · 30/10/2015 07:55

I am/was, don't really know yet, set to lose £50 a week and I already work 2 jobs, I don't know where I could fit 25 extra work hours in, even if I could find it.

Does anyone know whats happening with tax credits yet, I've been worried sick but I don't know what to do now, I'm still looking for another job, but is the money being cut in April or after that?

Its an awful way to live, they need to tell us and not have us hanging on, I've heard so many things I dont know what to believe now.

OP posts:
JeepersMcoy · 30/10/2015 10:57

I don't get this argument that if we took welfare away businesses would magically pay more. If they are the sort of company to pay crappy wages on zero hours contracts now what makes anyone think they will suddenly get a social conscience just because their staff aren't getting benefits?

There is a reason we have to have a legal minimum wage. It is because unless they are legally obliged to pay a certain amount then many places will pay as little as possible and you are deluded if you think there aren't people desperate enough to work for a few quid if that is all they are offered.

There are also often other factor involved in low paid jobs. For example a carer working for an agency that is contracted by a local authority will receive pay rates dictated by how much the LA will pay. This in turn is being driven down by the fact that central government cuts to LA funding means that the LA wants to pay lower rates to carers so they can balance their budgets.

Getting rid of benefits is not going to mean your local council has more money to pay carers and carer agencies aren't just sitting around with loads if spare cash to top up low wages. So how exactly does the government expect them to make up the difference?

SolidGoldBrass · 30/10/2015 11:18

And the whole 'disruption economy/sharing economy' model is going to spread - the likes of Uber, TaskRabbit, AirB&B etc are the opposite of ways for 'ordinary people to make extra income.' Sure, they sound fabulous on paper (or in a slick presentation online) but what they really do is undercut and undercut and undercut, so the people who are doing the actual work get less and less money. Also, these kinds of organisations don't employ people: if you sign up for one you are 'self-employed' - so no holiday pay, no sick pay, no minimum wage; the company doesn't have to insure you or deal with your tax or guarantee you anything. They generate a lot of profit for a small number of people ie directors and shareholders, and destroy sustainable small businesses.
This, of course, is going to look very, very attractive to people with the mindset of the current government. They might well start contracting out public services to 'agencies' built along these lines fairly soon.

Atenco · 30/10/2015 11:50

I don't get this argument that if we took welfare away businesses would magically pay more. If they are the sort of company to pay crappy wages on zero hours contracts now what makes anyone think they will suddenly get a social conscience just because their staff aren't getting benefits?

This

99% of businesses will pay the least they can get away with.

HelenaDove · 30/10/2015 16:28

Totally agree Jeepers There is nothing stopping them paying a decent wage now. No one is forcing them to pay low wages.

WomanScorned · 01/11/2015 02:32

I was told about some warehouse work today. Apparently, they're desperate, and its almost guaranteed I could get shifts there until Xmas. I got all excited, until I found out that the shifts are 6-2 and 2-10. Breakfast club isn't open at 5am, and after school club closes long before 10pm. Surely, if they're that desperate, they could have a 9-5 option? Angry

HelenaDove · 01/11/2015 02:46

Sounds to me like its their way of excluding parents from applying Hmm

DeoGratias · 01/11/2015 08:34

Some wise words in this articel in today's papers:-

"Maybe the political repercussions of the cuts to tax credits were unavoidable. After all, when people have been receiving regular government payments – even for a short time – they come to see them as a right and to base their life expectations around them. This was never going to be easy. Especially when these payments were being made to people who had chosen to work rather than be unemployed: in other words, precisely those whom the Government had been determined to praise as doing the right thing. So yes, this was always going to be a much more contentious step than the changes to benefits for those who were not in work.

Those earlier reforms fitted neatly into the Conservatives’ clearly enunciated philosophy of discouraging welfare dependency as a lifestyle choice. The public was overwhelmingly on board, believing the changes to be socially responsible and morally sound. That was the easy bit. But it was never going to be the answer, by itself, to the problem of wildly escalating welfare costs.

It is too late to correct the impression that the Conservatives wanted to perpetrate a hard-hearted penalty on the working poor

It was the huge programme of in-work benefits that needed to be dismantled if there was to be any hope of getting expenditure under control – which is what George Osborne keeps saying. Unfortunately, that is pretty much all he is saying. The refrain is repeated over and over again: if we want to have more money to spend on health, education and national infrastructure, we must be prepared to reduce the enormous cost of tax credits, which has increased from £7.1 billion (in present currency values) in 1996/7 to £30.6 billion today. Working tax credits now account for 15 per cent of all social security spending. This is obviously out of control and unsustainable. Then the Chancellor usually adds the mantra of the moment: what we need is a low-welfare, low-tax, high wage economy.

All of this is absolutely sensible. But it still sounds callous and inconsistent with everything that has been said previously about not penalising people who are doing the right thing (i.e. working for a living). What it implies is that the Government is prepared to get the economy into surplus, and release more money for health, education, etc, on the backs of the lowest-paid workers in the country. Those households already struggling to subsist might be about to lose, quite suddenly, what would seem to them a significant proportion of their income.

However much the Tories tried to counter this fact with the promise of higher income tax thresholds and an increase in the minimum wage, they were clearly unable to state that nobody, in the short-term anyway, would lose out. So clearly something will now have to happen to soften the effects – but the political damage is done. It is too late to correct the impression that the Conservatives wanted to perpetrate what appears to be a hard-hearted penalty on the working poor without thought for the immediate consequences on people’s lives.

Could this have been handled better? You bet. What was missing from the Osborne defence was a very persuasive moral argument against government topping up low wages and thus creating a low-pay trap. The economist Arthur Laffer has said: “If you pay people to be poor, you will get more and more poor people.” He was referring specifically to the benefit-dependent underclass held in permanent poverty by the welfare system that created perverse disincentives to work. But the same principle applies to tax credits: if you pay people to be low-paid, you will get more and more low-paid people. Instead of low-wage jobs simply being an entry point to employment, or a temporary stop-gap at particular stages of life, they become the permanent condition of a whole tranche of the population.

Because low rates of pay automatically trigger the government tax credit system – raising the total income to an acceptable level – there is no pressure on the employer to offer more or the worker to seek anything better. Quite the opposite, in fact. As with all welfare systems, the cut-off points act as disincentives. Because increased earnings meant loss of tax credits there was, under Labour, a constant raising of the eligibility threshold until, as David Cameron pointed out in the Commons last week, even some well-remunerated MPs were entitled to them.

This is the absurdity that direct government pay supplements eventually reach if no one has the nerve to hold the line (or, in Gordon Brown’s case, if someone actually wishes to create a political dilemma for any future government). But the ludicrousness of the situation is not as serious as the socially disastrous consequence.

It is probably the case that more people are now imprisoned in the low-pay, tax-credit-dependency trap than are locked into unemployment by out-of-work benefits. So instead of a dynamic employment pattern in which people enter the job market at the low-pay end (or drop into it temporarily for other reasons) and then work their way up and out of it, making room at the bottom for more new entrants, we have a permanent caste of low-paid workers who are being paid by the government to stay where they are. This is crazy – and it is certainly not compassionate. If it’s social mobility you want, this is no way to get it.

Add to that the perennial curse of government welfare programmes: they lend themselves to misuse. Wherever there is a universal entitlement available there will be ways of gaming the system. One particularly ingenious (and perfectly legal) way to become eligible for tax credits is to be self-employed but earn no profit on your business. By being a registered self-employed person who earns little or nothing, you are entitled to have your income supplemented by government both in the form of the Working Tax Credit and, if you have a family, Child Tax Credits. What, you may wonder, could be the point of continuing in such self-employment when it is earning nothing? Exactly this: were you to be unemployed, the new benefit rules would see to it that you were continually pressured into seeking work.

Government entitlements lend themselves to manipulation and work-rounds

The local Job Centre would be calling you in for regular appointments, wanting to send you on interviews or training schemes and demanding to know how much effort you were making to find a job. But if you are unprofitably self-employed, nobody pesters you at all. In effect, your entire income is coming from the state without any of the hassle of being officially unemployed.

Needless to say, I am not suggesting that every self-employed person who is in receipt of tax credits is engaged in this practice. What I am saying is that government entitlements (particularly large-scale programmes, which are difficult to police) lend themselves to manipulation and work-rounds: wherever there is free money, there will be methods of obtaining it that subvert the original object. And knowledge of those methods will spread until they are commonplace.

In his Autumn Statement, the Chancellor is clearly going to do something to ameliorate the impact of these cuts on families who have become dependent on a vastly expanded benefits system. It was a previous government that installed these payments but it is the moral responsibility of the present one to see to it that those who – through no fault of their own – now rely on them are not pushed into hardship. I only hope that Mr Osborne manages to do this without looking as if he is being sulkily forced to admit that he was outplayed in the Westminster game. There is a perfectly sound ethical and social case for putting a stop to a system that perpetuates low wages and locks the working poor into a permanently hopeless position at the bottom of the economy. His original intention was right. He should defend it for the right reasons. "

lieselvontwat · 01/11/2015 12:52

Certain types of parent I'd say helena. It might be very doable, even advantageous, if you're a parent of school aged children who has a partner or lots of help from family. Could cut down on wraparound childcare costs too, since you'd be able to do the entirety of either the morning or afternoon whereas you couldn't do either on a 9-5. The people who really couldn't do it would be single parents.

HelenaDove · 01/11/2015 17:14

DeoGratias If they were serious about any of that they would get rid of workfare.

And as had been said before no one is forcing employers to pay low wages just because the tax credits are there.

Im on a healthy eating plan. If there is a victoria sponge in the home should i eat it and then blame it on the cake because its there. No. And if i did i would be told that it was down to me and my willpower not the cakes fault.

Yet if employers take advantage of tax credits just because they are there its the tax credits fault.

SolidGoldBrass · 01/11/2015 23:11

Deogratias: the reason people are trapped in low-pay employment is because employers won't pay them enough. Because, if you run a company that needs to cut its costs and increase its profits, the easiest area in which to claw back money is staff wages when there is a system in place which demands everyone work for wages however crappy. This whole system of completely not-thought-through privatisation and agencies means that the ever-so-important taxpayers' money is going to some agencies twice over - they get paid by the government to supply cleaners/unskilled admin staff/careres and then they get paid some more in the form of tax credits to their employees whose wages they can now cut even further.
Just like the combination of selling off council housing and encourageing buy-to-let means that the taxpayers' money that goes on housing benefit is going into the pockets of private landlords rather than back into the counc il's budget.

AllThePrettySeahorses · 02/11/2015 07:40

If the tories were so committed to saving money, they would not have implemented cuts to top rate and inheritance tax. I've read many widely varying estimates about the actual cost to the economy of IT cuts, but a good number put it at around £4 billion, similar to the amount due to be "saved" by TC cuts. Innit nice, your kids will starve while you work 60 hours a week but people can benefit from huge, unearned rises in capital when they flog that family home that's apparently so important to them? No, if the government really wanted to shrink the deficit and pay back the debt (although they don't seem to understand what those terms mean), they'd do something drastic like tax everyone an extra 10% for a year, even their rich mates, or whatever amount would be necessary.

Lets be honest, most of the low paid jobs that we're told people should work hard and progress from are the same ones that keep society going - shop assistants, cleaners - or are what we hope people with a real vocation will work as - care home workers. No one's going to miss a management consultant or a party planner.

LittleCandle · 02/11/2015 08:13

As a single, older woman who has no children living at home, I have found myself in the position of working on a 20 hour contract and this means I don't qualify for any benefits. I am earning slightly above MW and took on this job (which I love) because I was going to have an elderly relative coming to live with me. She would require care, and I would be topping up my wages with carer's allowance. Sadly, before she could come home (we had to wait for ss assessment of the house etc) it was decided that her dementia was too advanced for her to be safe at home with me. I do get extra hours at work, but I am virtually living on the breadline. DD2 is at university and is supporting herself with loans and a job, because I have no spare money to give to her. I hate the situation I am in - I fall through the cracks in the benefits system and before taking this job, my tax credit was being cut back regularly. I am also penalised because, if DD2 had gone and done some crappy college course that isn't worth the paper its written on, I would have continued to receive TC, but because she went to university, I was entitled to nothing - and apparently the government helps children from poorer homes to go to university - really?

I am lucky to have a job that I like, but I am aware that as I get older, getting another job will be more and more difficult and I applied for literally hundreds of jobs before I got this one. Full time jobs in retail are as scarce as hens' teeth. I do get extra hours at work the majority of the time, but I can't rely on that. Retraining is impossible - I couldn't afford it.

This is one area where all political parties need to work together - and they won't.

ssd · 02/11/2015 09:38

I don't understand why kids leaving school and going to college allows the parents to still get tax credits but going to uni they stop, we are going to be in this position too.

OP posts:
platespinning · 02/11/2015 09:46

Tax credits stop at 20 though no matter what, even if they're at college, so choosing college over uni only delays the end of tax credits by a couple of years at most. All parents have to face the fact that tax credits will come to an end when their child reaches adulthood and then they are assessed in the same way as any other adult with no dependants.

DeoGratias · 02/11/2015 10:08

I certainly agree with Solid above about the new apps. I used the Handy app/website in the summer and was interested in how the cleaners were paid (and I used one handyman from there too). One asked me for some help about her application to HMRC to become self employed - she needed an HMRC number and I did a translation into romanian for her.

So that was easier for the householder - you do a few clicks and you get a cleaner to turn up for 3 hours for £30 and you don't have to speak to anyone at all or interview or anything - massively easier than in the day of placing adverts inl ocal papers, adverts, interviewing etc. However for the cleaner they have to find the place and it sounded like they are self employed (all 3 or 4 we had were not English). The Handyman was English and the cost was about a fifth of what I usually pay my usual handyman company so again absolutely marvellous for me but presumably he got paid a lot less. It just seemed an illustration of the low wage economy. Mind you I have reverted to my normal cleaner now she's back as she always turns up.

London has a bit of an upsurge in jobs at present even at the bottom end, so if people can move that is worth trying although I accept not everyone wants to do what I did and move hundreds of miles away from family to find jobs.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 02/11/2015 11:12

I can't see the apps replacing regular cleaning jobs. Handyman, maybe, if you want a one-off job doing, but for something that involves coming into your house unsupervised you want someone reliable and trustworthy who knows all about your funny little ways as an employer.

Even with the handyman type jobs, we have employed an awful lot of people since moving into our project house a year ago and the only person who us ripped us off is the one we found via the internet rather than the old-fashioned ways like personal recommendation and checking in the local free magazine. Maybe it's different in cities where local reputation isn't so important.

BTW Deo, I don't think it's entirely fair to say 'not everyone wants to do what I did and move'. The sums don't add up like they used to due to higher rents and lower wages - I am sure there are plenty of people who would in theory be perfectly happy to move areas to find work but even if they end up working more hours the higher cost of rents and childcare would make them worse off, not better.

DeoGratias · 02/11/2015 16:24

Yes, that's true although I know a lot of people including my daughters who use Handy and other apps for cleaners in London. you can time someone to come when you're home if you want to be in and often you end up with a regular booked through the site whom you come to trust or you don't have much to steal other than children (which is my situation).

It may just be younger people like my children who have been content to sleep in friend's places and the Like. I remember sending them corporate house sitting/building sitting companies where you are virtually paid to live in a London firestation which is empty. Plenty of ways to skin the rental cat if you're young and strong.

DeoGratias · 02/11/2015 16:25

I had two romanians. The first who was the best was not Roma. The second who was in a bit of a state about her mobile not working - I think she wasn't paid if she didn't confirm she'd arrived but without her phone she couldn't, showed me her bag as she left (to check for thefts)! i did not know what she meant at first.