To think 'in your face Osborne?'

[Littlefluffyclouds81]

I'm not. I know I'm not. I'm personally going to have a glass of wine and celebrate there being a significant amount of egg on the Tories' faces.

Wonder how many musicians playing in orchestras need tax credits to get by.

Thatcher did that to get the poll tax through, didn't she. Drummed up tons of their lordships - most of whom hadn't been seen in London or its environs for aeons. I seem to remember one being stretchered in.....

Gideon and Wonderboy are indeed her Bastard Spawn

I think the Lords have saved Osborne from a public backlash reminiscent of the Poll Tax. He ought to be grateful to them for pulling him back from the brink.

The cabinet can't see it because they are too blinkered by the combination of ideology AND lack of experience of being anywhere near poverty.

I am not even a supporter of Tax credits as I think they prop up poorly performing capitalism. But I and others I've spoken to have the life experience to know you can't take those sums of money from low income families overnight. Sensible Tories know it too.

Yes Ena, whether you are ideologically for or against tax credits, being told:

"Oh, on a macro economic level it will all be fine in a few years when the economy rebalances"

isn't much comfort when winter is coming and you are trying to feed the metre and your child needs new shoes now.

Ffs thatcher didn't shut the mines. She was PM when the industry was becoming unviable and stood up to the unions who wanted to bring the country to stand still.
Ffs. Yes she did.

My nearest library is seventeen miles away. £7.00 return on the bus.

I really am. In fact, I'm more flexible than a nursery and more accommodating of individual requests. It's horses for courses though, some people prefer one over the other

depends on your definition of reliable. If you have to take even the odd day off sick and a single mother is having to take days off sick for her children, and then herself, it adds up. A couple of weeks holiday are also a nuisance and need to be covered by the parent(s). It can put jobs at risk in a worst case scenario. I have used both childminders and nurseries and have always found nurseries to be more reliable, although not necessarily the environment in which I would prefer to leave my children. I have also personally found childminders to be the least accommodating form of childcare - very fixed in the hours they will (won't) work, much going about their daily business (shopping, cleaning, taking the car for an MOT) whilst 'working', much 'my child needs to go to the dentist and I'm not carting your child with me' scenarios, no understanding of special needs whatsoever. So, I gave up and used a nursery - no issues since.

I don't want to derail the thread into a nursery vs childminder pros and cons or get all defensive on behalf of my trade, but I am sorry you've had bad experiences. We're not all like that :)

So absent parents, yep shits who need to pay for the children they abandoned.... However are you actually saying that it is ok to punish the child /family that was abandoned? I don't know why I put a question mark because yes that is what you believe. They deserve sanctions for daring to be born and then left.

Must be lovely on that pedestal.

Mobile phones are not a luxury - for very many people they are actually cheaper than running a landline. But of course people whose spouses are higher rate taxpayers wouldn't know about that.

My (tiny) local library has three ancient creaking computers. They are open on the Sunday but no way could they meet the demand of people needing to do job searches, children needing to do online homework etc.

I would like to see people paid a wage they can live on for the work they do, but I have no confidence that this government can do this - even if they want to, which I doubt they do. Even if you do decide to rebalance the economy to make work pay more, you don't do it by taking away the income first and then hoping that maybe it'll all be alright in five years' time .

I think it's a 'stay of execution' and isn't the end of the story.

And if the money doesn't eventually come from TC cuts, there'll be cuts to other services/benefits.

It has probably harmed Gideon's chances of succeeding David Cameron. Now we will see the Tories try to bully the House of Lords no doubt.

If we had a fair voting system, or even a slightly better one such as the AV that we rejected, would never have been an issue.

We're dependent on tax credits and I don't see how I am a penny better off than my unemployed neighbours. In fact we are blatantly worse off - our rent isn't paid in full for us every week; I have to find well over £100 a month fo my kids' school lunches (they don't); we have downsized our car, and probably will have to give it up (awkward as husband's work is over 10 miles away and on no bus routes...) At this point I would be better off on full unemployment benefits. We got rid of Sky TV (our neighbours just got it - and broadband. Can't even imagine what that costs...) They have a £30,000 car have lived here 2 years and been unemployed the entire time.

If people who work are being punished to the point they'd be better off unemployed - why aren't the unemployed also being made to feel the pinch? People do literally look at their neighbours and wonder why they don't work but have more things and more money thrown at them. The tories have attacked the disabled, the working poor, now claim to have pensioners in their sights - so shall we assume the cynical ignoring of others is to create social division and a feeling of comfortable indignation amongst the comfortably off that unemployed people are now richer than many working people - and that indignation fires yet more "reforms". But never any reforms that hit the people they want to keep in the tabloid press to divide and rule everyone else...?

I mean, if I am on tax credits and already haven't bought my youngest a new coat for 3 years and struggle to buy a £15 of football boots - and I have to find all their school dinners, etc out of my own pocket - then why the hell am I and society at large paying for my neighbours' kids free dinners, free nursery places, etc etc?

Joffrey they have hit the unemployed (sanctions, lower ESA rates, everyone pays something to council tax now, school uniform grants gone in many areas)

How do you know your neighbours aren't up to their eyeballs in debt?

But are they "unemployed" though? Lots of people look "unemployed", but they have hidden disabilities, or are carers for people with hidden disabilities.

We have new neighbours. They were complaining about me taking dts to college at 7.30 a.m and then coming home and sitting on my arse until they'd finished, told other neighbour that they hoped the state weren't paying for it. Fortunately, other neighbours put them right, sharpish.
Point is, you don't actually know what goes on behind closed doors.

It's blatantly obvious what is going on. Pretend faux shock at unelected lords overriding an elected government's manifesto. Make a hoo hah about it, change legislation so it can never happen again and then they will push something much more decisive through.

devisive

Joffrey, you don't know that they're unemployed. Maybe they are and maybe they have family who supplement their income. Maybe they work from home on an internet-based business so you don't see them going off to the office.

I still don't understand why they don't just up the tax threshold to 20k? Makes more sense than taking money off people to then give it back? Bonkers. Whether they happen to have children or not is irrelevant.

It would be far more sensible to do something like that, angelos. I was thinking that very thing.

angelos / jux
If you increase the thresholds then the rich benefit
If you target the reduction at low earners then the rich do not benefit

And actually many recipients of tax credits earn less than the tax allowance anyway (24 hours at NMW is under the tax allowance)

angelos02 because some people are carers and unable to work. They recieve £62.10 per week and are already under the tax threshold. Tax credits go some way to make up for their loss of earnings / career / health / fulfillment and the huge amount of savings they are making to central and local government for their personal sacrifice.

Oh and despite being under the threshold they were also in line for the cuts because that £62 per week Carers Allowance is taxable income.

No, Jux, the woman told me herself they were unemployed and I have since heard the man telling someone else and heard it from other people, too. They may well be doing some kind of benefit fraud, I dunno. Either way, I struggle to feed and clothe my kids on tax credits as it is (birth dad doesn't pay a penny in maintenance). It annoys me that these people so blatantly are loaded and yet we pay for their kids' free school dinners, etc as many people on tax credits will end up with a smaller income than a similar sized family on full benefits, as they have little more money but have to find all these things with no help. My kids had no holiday this year - not even our usual two days in a tent kind of thing. There is no extra money for anything as it is - without tax credits, I have no idea how we will survive. There are clearly people whose lifestyles are such they could bear some cuts - but they are NOT the working poor.

Joffrey im sure you wouldnt like it if someone was speaking about you in the same way you are speaking about your neighbours because you are on tax credits.

And they have already brought more punitive measures in for the unemployed and the disabled over the past five years. It didnt garner this amount of threads though funnily enough

Below is a copy and paste from another thread of just one example.

IrianofWay Wed 14-Oct-15 10:15:54
shakey - the jobcentre is a whole other heap of misery! He applied for jobseekers allowance about 3 months ago. Was told he'd get Universal credit. Went for various interviews with a 'work coach' and eventually told to sign a contract agreeing to do some work experience at a factory. If he didn't sign he wouldn't get any money - later found out that the factory was 10 miles away, too far to walk or cycle and as his 12 hour shifts started at 6am there was no public transport. When he told his 'work coach' this they told him that he just had to get there or he'd lose his money - they suggested a car share. Who with? So H and I took turns last week to get up at 5am and take him. He spent his day waiting around while they tried to find him something to do and then throwing waste food in a big skip. God knows he better get this apprenticeship ! I can't face another week of 5 am starts!!