To have zero sympathy for this woman

[wasonthelist]

The tearful woman on BBC Question Time claims to have been a Tory voter. She's reaping what she sows.
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hame-you-hardworking-mums-tearful-6643284

Its true needsasock, she never changes, despite being show stats and data, despite even conservative think tanks like The ASI and IFS agreeing with us that cutting tax credits is a bad idea when it is done this way, and that it will negaitvely effect the weakest in the country. She still blames laziness.

I don't blame lazinss at all. The system is full of faults. Also in our democracy the Tories got in and more people support their policies than those of any other party. I am not some lone voice in the wilderness. I am the majority view. The left don't like it but they couldn't get the people of England to vote for them so they lose in a democracy.

I have also very often said lots of people work hard - my cleaner works nearly as hard as I do and works two jobs. I have never every said those paid less are lazy. Why would anyone want to twist my words? Presumably because they've lost all other arguments. I don't mind debating but to perpetuate lies about what I've said is below the belt.

I do think hard work pays but that does not mean that I think everyone who works for the minimum wage is lazy.

"I am the majority view" No the tories won a FPTP majority, you have the same view as 27% of the electorate, so 73% have a different one, you're not a majority.

"Presumably because they've lost all other arguments"

No, you are yet to rebut much of what I have argued, the left have plenty of support (130,000 new Labour party members) you haven't won any arguments here so far as I can see.

Grazia, so if your cleaner posted here and said she has 2 jobs (same as I do), yet still needs tax credits and they will be cut in April by £50 a week (same as mine), would you think this is harsh and unfair or would you think she didn't try at school and should work harder?

you're giving out very mixed messages here...

I do think hard work pays

You've just told us your cleaner works almost as hard as you do. I wonder how well this is reflected in her pay? I don't want an answer, but I very much doubt whether she earns more than an average wage of £25,000 per annum.

Something of a cross post there with ssd. Clearly Grazia's cleaner made the wrong choice of job. However, if we were all like Grazia, who would do the cleaning, bin emptying, serve in shops etc., etc., etc.. You have to assume that Grazia does all these things herself because she has paid a lot into the system and will get nothing back for it. Presumably where she lives in outer London there is no street lighting, no paved roads, no sewage, no bin collection, no electricity or gas, no shops.

Or it's just that she takes these things for granted.

if we were all like Grazia

all chiefs and no Indians, no one to do the donkey work, civilization would collapse
the oligarchy is nothing without us serfs

I think Grazia's cleaner works harder than she does. She has two jobs.

I think Grazia's cleaner deserves a fucking medal!

How have I twisted anything you have said.

Almost every single post you make on benefit or tax credit related threads you talk about people needing financial help as not working hard enough. About 15 pages ago we had a discussion where you talked about "people who don't work as hard as you" I pointed out that you and I whilst being comfortable finsncially probally do not work as physically hard as the people that serve us in retail establishments we use on our way to work or at lunchtime.

Nobody is ever going to ask us to carry crates of drinks to a fridge or something in our work place, why would they when they can pay someone else 7.20 to do that whilst we are getting several hundred quid an hour. We are less likely to have a boss or client treat us with anything less than decency and respect,we are less likely to be threatened or assaulted at work, we are far more likely to be able to sit down occasionally and we are more likely to live longer.

You tend to twist things quite a lot, you constantly refer to yourself as "working so you can pay tax to support poor people" as opposed to what the rest of the world does, you know working to provide themselves with a certain lifestyle and a side effect of that is paying tax.

You heavily imply you have lots of tiny children living at home with all your full time working mother bull. When in reality going from what I've picked up on here most of your kids are independent adults ones a postman and your youngest twins must be about 15/16 now, you make out you know what it's like being a single parent with little to no support usually when talking to people with actual tinies yet you didn't become a lone parent until your youngest were about 10 and you openly talk about all the paid for support you had, yes granted it was paid for but it is still support, there is a good arguement to be had that paid for practical support is far more reliable than free support.

Sometimes when you say about not having any support at all from your kids dad ( usually on threads berating others when they have a nightmare) I wonder if you really mean he walked out of your life never looking back and also did the same to the kids or do you mean he had a standard EOW or something like that arangement?

There's a lot to answer here and it's got a bit person. I was divorced when the twins were 4. I have never said I have a bad life. I do work harder than my cleaner but she shares my aims - I like the fact her son (first generation muslim immigrant is doing the exact same LPC law course where my daughters did - that's social mobility borne off hard work at its very best - a nice thing about the UK).

As for my children's father I chose to get divorced after 20 years so again I don't blame anyone for that. He is unusual in that he chooses not to see (most of the time) nor pay for the children but I cope. And as said above the youngest are teenagers now so it's a lot easier. He said he would never see them again but saw two of them about 1 - 2 hours a week and now it's about every 2 or 3 months. His chocie. I'd have been happy with 50/50. It would have been quite nice to get one night a year child free. I thought today all 3 boys were out until about 6 but one is back now early, not that I was planning an orgy in the house. It's Sunday. I just finished work and it's dark but no I don't ever claim my life is bad. I'm luckiest of all because I'm happy and healthy.

My cleaner like many immigrants wants their child to be a doctor or lawyer and to work hard to make their way in life. I admire that aim and that work ethic.

It gets personal Grazia because you make it personal by talking about how clever and hardworking you are (the implication being that others who are less fortunate are not).

And tbh, I'm really amazed that someone with a professional career (especially one in the field that you work in) is prepared to "make it personal" when you are so recognisable and easy to identify in RL from the personal information you provide.

Arguing the point is fine, everyone has the right to do that from all points on the political spectrum (there are even some things we agree on believe it or not) - but you have to listen to others, respond to their points, provide evidence to support your assertions, and not bring everything back to how intelligent/hardworking you are personally ... Because if you do that, how can it ever NOT be personal?

'I do work harder than my cleaner'

I don't think you do. I think cleaning is a harder job than being a solicitor or writing books. Far harder. Not just physically, but mentally as well. She has tow the line and pretend to be inferior to you to keep her job.

Not to do you down, it's hard to qualify for your level of occupation and you are more than amply rewarded to it. Your books are reviewed well so you are obviously talented there too.

I worked today too. In a job which we find it hard to get good staff, and to retain them. It's a wonderful job which I love. I get paid £7.20 per hour. For a job few are able to do or actually want to do. And I'm qualified to do it too. Go figure!

*rewarded for it

I don't think you work harder than your cleaner either. It's a more physically demanding job than yours. You'll have standards that you expect her to keep up too because you're paying her and you'll be on her case if she slips below them.

And I hope you don't constantly remind her how hard you think you work like you remind everyone on here. If so I wouldn't blame her for telling you to do your own bloody cleaning!

first generation muslim immigrant.

So, did she have the educational opportunity herself to go to a respected university and qualify as a solicitor in her own country? If not, was it just because she was too lazy to work for it, or was it because the cultural expectations placed upon girls in her country made it extremely difficult for the vast majority? I would bet that this is not a problem that you had Grazia, but you don't seem able to acknowledge that life dealt you a good hand to begin with. That's what a lot of us are taking issue with.

Your books are reviewed well so you are obviously talented there too

They are incredibly good,I have several of them in my library.

People who work hard get on which is why immigrants do better than the native Britons in most areas. She and I get on because we have so much in common and mutually admire each other. It takes a few generations to progress. My great grandfather was a miner, my mother worked very hard and went to state grammar school etc. We all know the phrase clogs to clogs in 3 generations.

All the evidence shows that the people of England who vioted in the Tories (including me) got it right. the fact the left are floundering like a fish on a hook and have to endure 5 years of Tory rule is something they need to get their heads around. Without doubt the Tories will be best for people at all levels of society in the UK.

I have spent a lot of my time over the last 30 years helping all kinds of women to progress. I don't go on about voluntary work and the like but I'm pretty proud of my achievements in that area as much as others.

All the evidence shows that the people of England who vioted in the Tories (including me) got it right. the fact the left are floundering like a fish on a hook and have to endure 5 years of Tory rule is something they need to get their heads around. Without doubt the Tories will be best for people at all levels of society in the UK.

I'm trying to get my head round the fact you believe that load of cobblers

If your ex refuses to pay any CM have you not Used the services of the relevant agency in order to rectify this?

Given that you often berate other mothers who are in a much less fortunate position than yourself because the father of their children do the same as your ex, how come?

My eldest children's father is deceased, my middle children's father decided to live off my payout after we parted company as well as running a transportation company he put in his GF's name and apparently she only pays him £65 a week and my younger children are all as a result of a donor. That's why I don't get any CM. But equally as such I don't use that as a stick to beat another mother with for her choices in having children with a deadbeat given that the only one I could make any attempt from is a deadbeat that would be an insult I would want to stay well away from that.

So finally, we hear that Grazia herself isn't a miner's daughter - two intervening generations have been working to better themselves. Nothing wrong with that; but there is the lack of acknowledgement that she is reaping some of the benefits of their hard work. It's all been about her hard work so far and how if no one else emulates her then they must be lazy.

Note how the related question of whether her cleaner had the same chance, and was it just a matter of hard work, was ducked.

BTW Grazia - I think your great grandfather could really tell you something about hard work. We hear of mining disasters, and even today if one happens we know the miners are jolly lucky if they get out alive. I can't recollect any solicitors' disasters.

He is unusual in that he chooses not to see (most of the time) nor pay for the children but I cope.

Which is slightly different from what you said in a national newspaper interview - that he shared childcare with you as the kids grew up, didn't want to get divorced and actually disregarded his solicitor's advice to take you for 50% + alimony, and asked for a smaller lump sum instead, even though he was a low earner. He's not quite the shit you make out!

And yes I do appreciate that it's hard to be a single parent, even if you're rich. The reason you get attacked is that you consider anyone in a lowly job to be "thick" (and yes I've seen you say that about mere secretaries and admin people) and spam the boards taking the piss out of people who are struggling ("so you have a disabled child and a sick husband, and a full time physically demanding job and you're worried about tax credits? Boo hoo, you're not trying hard enough as you haven't got a Saturday job hurr hurr")

I wish I could work out who the hell you are.