AIBU to tell you it is not illegal to take your child out of school to go on holiday

[Pseudonym99]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-34543101

(Oh, and while I'm putting all my cards on the table:

• Taking a child out for holiday during the last 3 days of the Christmas term is not an educational issue, though they miss out on some fun experiences, especially the Christmas Show they've been rehearsing ad nauseam.

• Unless your child is in the final year of that particular school or they have a 'spend the day with your new teacher' day, then the final week of the summer holiday is equally fair game for holiday-taking.)

They will both be enrolled in ski-school, they will be encouraged to speak french as much as possible.

ski schools and prices are sky high during half term, as of course demand really spikes. I don't want either the hassle or the prices during half term.

The problem with fines and authorizations of course is that what's important to one family isn't important to another. Schools can authorize a day or two for religious holidays, but why not skiing?

Shut I do think there are times when people should be involved, however I think it's extremely over the top to fine parents for taking their kids out of school for a holiday.

Drastic, how many teachers in your school have had other work experience before starting teaching? Looking around my staffroom, I see an ex-middle manager from a large multinational, an ex senior family lawyer, an ex advertising executive, an ex librarian, an ex employee of a bank, an ex publisher ... and that is just the ones I know well enough to have had in-depth conversation about their previous lives...

The problem with this legislation is that it takes no account of real life.

in the real world self employed people like me and my staff cannot take time off in school holidays or most weekends because of our jobs. the only time we can have holidays is in school term time. we are not the only industry in this situation.

also in the real world, under the old rules responsible parents like me actually spoke to the head teacher. we asked what weeks would cause least disruption and then we took that week off no matter when it was. our children buddied up so that no work was missed.

I am just fed up of legislation that affects the many when it should be targeting the few.

I am fed up of head teachers who are paid really good salaries not being trusted to decide whose attendance is such that they should or should not be authorised leave during term time.

term times cant move. there are too many fixed points like gcses and results, ucas forms, clearing, key stage testing, 11+ and on and on. if you put all these fixed things in a calendar the wriggle room is minimal.

as for greedy holiday companies - really?? its economics. family holiday businesses who have 52 weeks to earn a living in now down to 13 weeks of course prices are going to go up and go up even more now!

I really hope this can be used as case law and it is the beginning of giving back power to the schools teachers to decide. they may not want it because of the aggro from parents but that is a completely different matter and should be dealt with appropriately on an individual parent by parent basis.

would a teacher tell everyone to go and see the head just because one pupil in their class was kicking off? No thought not. so why treat all parents the same with this law.

Sorry, should have said 'summer term', not 'summer holiday' above.

On the religious holiday thing, I do think it's a want / need thing: I need to visit the temple as it is required by my religion (authorised) / I want to visit my family in another city because it is a religious holiday (not authorised). It is difficult to remain fair, because of course Christians get all their main religious holidays off anyway, and a member of another religion might be quite happy to come in on Christmas day but be unable to because the school isn't open.

I am just fed up of legislation that affects the many when it should be targeting the few.

as an immigrant, I see this a lot and it mystifies me. For the sake of "fairness", everyone is told to suffer. I don't get it.

I am fed up of head teachers who are paid really good salaries not being trusted to decide whose attendance is such that they should or should not be authorised leave during term time.

this is happening not only in Britain, but in the US as well, and not just in education. Discretion is being eliminated, so everyone can say it's "out of their hands".

As I said above, having more than once seen a headteacher verbally abused and threatened with physical violence over an unauthorised holiday request - because the parents thought that 'a family holiday is a right' - it has been helpful that in recent years there is slid LA and government support behind such decisions.

Disregarding the rules, and refusing to pay fines, is not "questioning" the rules and regulations, strawberry. The family who took their DCs on holiday, then refused to pay the fine, we're not part of a "civil disobedience" campaign.

I was asked up thread if I have the same attitude towards other aspects of my life. Yes, I do. I accept that there are rules and laws associated with the choices I make.

If I choose to drive, I have to have a driving license with my current name and address on it. Forgetting to change my address doesn't change how well I can drive, but I will get fined if I am caught.
This is no different. Taking my DC out of school may make no difference to her education. But if I do, I can expect to be fined.

I can join campaign groups that seek to change those laws, but until they are changed, I consider it my obligation to either abide by them or accept the consequences - not refuse to do either because I don't agree with them.

I need to visit the temple as it is required by my religion (authorised)

why should religion take precedence over skiing? A genuine question actually.

Suppose you have a Swiss immigrant in the UK. if you read up on the swiss you will see that participating in alpine activities are a massive part of their identity. Skiing and hiking are really huge there. Ski holidays are fun for all (do children have fun on religious holidays? I guess it depends), it's an active outdoor activity (important in a time when you have to crowbar kids away from devices), and the family is together.

term times cant move. there are too many fixed points like gcses and results, ucas forms, clearing, key stage testing, 11+ and on and on. if you put all these fixed things in a calendar the wriggle room is minimal.

That's not true. There are several areas of the U.K., notably the midlands and scilly Isles, where term times have varied from the "norm" for years to accommodate specific local employment trends. They manage, and other schools could to. Governing bodies should change term dates to meet the needs of parents in their local area.

Forgetting to change my address doesn't change how well I can drive, but I will get fined if I am caught.
This is no different. Taking my DC out of school may make no difference to her education. But if I do, I can expect to be fined.

Your address affects your insurance rates. One of the reasons why it needs to be correct.

We all know there are rules and regulations in society, and many of them are good. What people are saying is that the rules and regulations surrounding absences here go too far, and they do. I am from another country, have two family members as teachers there, and they just cope. Both were when I told them what happens here.

I consider it my obligation to either abide by them or accept the consequences - not refuse to do either because I don't agree with them.

that's of course your choice, but people regularly break rules they disagree with, and I have sympathy for this one the rules are on the wrong side of reasonable. People aren't going to wait for the law to change to smoke a joint.

Religion is a protected characteristic. It could be argued that a Swiss immigrant's ethnicity is equally protected - in which case, in those situations, a skiing holiday should be approved, just as a trip to Lourdes or Mecca should be for reasons of religion.

Red, I do think the religion thing is difficult, and in many ways an anomaly.

If the school year in England was divided into 6 exactly equal terms, with holidays at exactly spaced intervals, then you can have exactly equal rules for all religious observance for all faiths. You could decide either that all faiths got to take their specific 'holy days' off, or that none of them did. (in Dubai, when I was at primary there, we did not have a school holiday for Christmnas, and had the church service and presents after school)

However, because our school holidays are traditionally built around Christian festivals, it puts schools and other institutions in a difficult situation as far as discrimination is concerned. If you say 'No-one may take their holy days off', then you are inviting the response 'But Christians do, you are discriminating'. So the default has had to become 'Holy days off'.

I agree that in modern, largely secular, society, this is in many ways an irritating anomaly. But I can see how it has come about....

religion trumps everything redstrawberry. you cant challenge it or you will be branded a racist. why should the rules be bent for those with an imaginary friend?

what is really starting to annoy me is that at my DS's school they have 3 separate weeks in every year when they call them "challenge " weeks or curriculum enrichment. pointless useless activities in school that do nothing to enrich or enhance my sons learning so why not let me take him out for those 3 weeks and do something with him he really wants to do like go to Barcelona to practice his Spanish and look at architecture all day every day.

At my dd's school a 2 week trip to India for £3K and before anyone asks yes it is a state school.

if an absence is an absence then it should be the same for a family holiday as it is for a school arranged holiday as it is for a religious trip. end of.

strawberry I don't have issue with people who choose to break the rules, it's the ones that winge when they get caught and refuse to accept the consequences that I don't understand!

Exactly, South American. I have no issue with parents who say 'I am taking unathorised holiday'. I DO have an issue with those who say 'I am taking a holiday and I am going to throw my toys out of the pram because it won't be authorised'.

religion trumps everything redstrawberry. you cant challenge it or you will be branded a racist

Religion has nothing to do with race.

I agree that in modern, largely secular, society, this is in many ways an irritating anomaly. But I can see how it has come about....

Well, yes, given that the current state school system is based largely on the free education system established by the Church....!

Mummy not sure why challenging things to do with religion gets you called a racist, since religion is not race. Like PP have said, religion is a protected characteristic and time off to attend religious duties (eg Yom Kippur) is normal in the workplace too. Same principle as reasonable adjustments for disability, disability is a protected characteristic.

I take my child out for a weeks holiday every year. This year I took her for a fortnight. I have never been fined. I have never been warned that I might be fined. The one time the HT ever approached me about it was to say "her attendance is very good (never lower than 96%) and so is her punctuality (100%, never been late) so we obviously aren't too concerned as long as you don't make habit of it". This is an outstanding OFSTED rated school and considered one of the best in the borough.

I have to say as well that I have never seen the MN inflexible attitude and concrete thinking with regards to this in RL.

Termly and annual Lesson plans accomodate residential a and challenge weeks - so pupils don't miss education that their peers are receiving.

Whereas family holidays take no account of lesson planning, and lesson planning takes no account of family holidays.

strawberry I agree with you too. Somehow in other countries, they manage to deal with that wo these blanket statemenst taht create so many problems.

It has been another knee jerk reaction where we've put a plaster to cover the wound wo even trying to understand WHAT was the problem and WHY it was an issue.

I took the dcs away for a week each years since they started school. We are going back to my home country (and no I cant go back at other time due to cost even if these times would actually be easier for me :(). The dcs spoke a second langauge for two weeks, got to see their relatives. Hard to see how it wouldn't be beneficial for them.
However, it's not allowed but having some time off for religious reasons is...

I know some schools round where we are when there 2/3 of the class missing because of some religious event. Is that really the right way to do things?

Their education isn't going to be impacted by missing a week of school get a grip