Page 8 | AIBU to tell you it is not illegal to take your child out of school to go on holiday

mummymeister · 16/10/2015 14:27

southamericancuisine - go back through some old mn threads and see that this doesn't happen. was not commenting on whether this was the right terminology or not. obviously I have been on MN too long and read too many threads that I used a term I thought others would be familiar with.

religion should never be used as an excuse. its a choice.

teacherwith2kids - I have an issue with those parents who choose a religion and then expect everything to fit in around them.

SouthAmericanCuisine · 16/10/2015 14:29

I have to say as well that I have never seen the MN inflexible attitude and concrete thinking with regards to this in RL.

You obviously weren't in my DHs office this morning - it got quite heated, apparently!

redstrawberry10 · 16/10/2015 14:30

I don't have issue with people who choose to break the rules, it's the ones that winge when they get caught and refuse to accept the consequences that I don't understand!

that's not what people are whingeing about. People aren't whingeing about being caught (at least I am not), but they are whingeing about the disproportionate consequences.

mummymeister · 16/10/2015 14:30

Termly and annual Lesson plans accomodate residential a and challenge weeks - so pupils don't miss education that their peers are receiving.

so I can take my son out on each of those 3 challenge weeks because there is no other work planned for then. thanks southamericancuisine I will get my forms in now.

teacherwith2kids · 16/10/2015 14:31

I don't think 'choose' a religion is exactly the right word, either - it's not like buying shoes.

Those who are born into devoutly religious families, of whatever faith, are likely to retain that religious and cultural identity. Some - like Judaism - are races as well as religions, and you are simply born one, though i agree that you can choose to what level you practise that religion following your birth.

I presume that yiou 'choose' to give Christmas presents? Maybe even chocolate around easter time? Is that a genuine CHOICE that you are making? Or do you do it because the christian religion has given rise to certain 'cultural norms'?

LovelyFriend · 16/10/2015 14:31

Why have you chosen to send your DCs to a school that doesn't have term dates that suit your family?
this comment was from up thread a bit but I really wanted to point out that many many people don't have a choice as to what school their child goes to - there is an illusion of choice, but not actual choice.

The LA allocates places.

PacificMouse · 16/10/2015 14:32

South does it mean that the children staying at school then do ... nothing???

So my already very well ahead dc who is bored like hell at school is also supposed to learn nothing for these weeks too?

Surely that can't be right. If someone has deemed necessary to have 35 weeks (or whatever it is) to learn xx things than it shouldn't be done in 32 weeks to allow for residential. How is that right for the students who are struggling? Or should they should be staying at school to use these weeks as a catch up and not go away instead?

Sorry your theory is OK when all the children go away. When it's not compulsory and not all children go away, it shouldn't be treated as if part of the curriculum and teaching plan around them. It's not fair on the children who are staying, nor is it fair on the children in general as it will clearly affect their learning (as they won't have as much time to learn to start with)

HopefulAnxiety · 16/10/2015 14:33

Pacific what would you suggest the school does? Forbid that 2/3 of the class from following their religion? I personally think the school was wrong to disallow your holiday, since it is beneficial for cultural reasons like time off for religious observance is.

SouthAmericanCuisine · 16/10/2015 14:33

meister. It probably won't be authorised, because the rules say he has to be in school, but it will minimise the impact of his abscence on his education, so yes, if you're going to take him out of school, then those weeks would definitely be best.

MNerAnon · 16/10/2015 14:33

No yanbu at all. My parents took us out every year for holidays and I managed to get a degree and reach the top of my profession.

The rules are for the piss-takers who don't send their kids 'normally.' But sadly cover the rest of us too.

Although having said that, my DS won't even poo at school if it doesn't happen to coincide with playtime, in case he misses some of his learning in class! So I'm thinking if it's stressful for him I probably shouldn't do it.

redstrawberry10 · 16/10/2015 14:34

religion should never be used as an excuse. its a choice.

religion should be used as an excuse. My question is why it's different from skiing.

Religion is a great example because these inflexible rules don't at all account for the diversity in people's lives and situations EXCEPT when you use the R word. Then, everyone needs to stop and think. But, religion raises the point that we all have different needs, and different things are important to different families. For some it's Islam. For some it's skiing.

Also, I thank someone above who mentioned that different religions get treated differently. Christmas and Easter are coincidentally (yeah right) holidays. Lucky Christians.

PacificMouse · 16/10/2015 14:34

Teacher in that case, as it is an issue of preserving their culture and identity, I think I should be allowed holidays back to my home country. Is that OK?
I mean the dcs didn't chose to be bi cultural.

HopefulAnxiety · 16/10/2015 14:37

mummy but being Jewish (for instance) isn't a choice. It's a race as well - you are born Jewish. The parents will likely have been born Jewish.

Again religion, disability, race, gender etc are protected characteristics, by law. Two weeks at Disney is not.

PacificMouse · 16/10/2015 14:37

Im not saying that the school shoouldn't allow them not to come for religious reasons.
Im saying that there are plenty of other situations where people would want to be away and these aren't seen as acceptable.

It is true that we all bend backwards when religion is involved but not so much for other reasons.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 16/10/2015 14:38

How does the legislation take no account of real life? It purposely doesn't dictate what is/isn't an exceptional circumstance and leaves that decision up to HT. There is some guidance, but a lot of the situations that people are bringing up here are covered within that guidance.

And most LAs aren't fining for 1 instance of a term time holiday AFAIK. They will still allow a certain number of days absence. There's nothing in the legislation that says they must always fine for a holiday.

redstrawberry10 · 16/10/2015 14:38

in that case, as it is an issue of preserving their culture and identity, I think I should be allowed holidays back to my home country. Is that OK?

perhaps instead of the law and schools micromanaging what's important to different families, why not let families decide and let schools focus on the kids who are really having trouble because their parents can't be bothered to get them to school?

mummymeister · 16/10/2015 14:39

choosing to give a present or some chocolate or carve a pumpkin is a very different proposition than saying I have to have this week off to go on a pilgrimage. sorry but religion is a choice. culture is too to a certain extent. race isn't.

just because you are born into something doesn't mean you have to accept it or practice it. adults choose to do this. they choose to believe in certain things and believe that certain things are expected of them.

people choose their religion in the same way that some parents choose to take their kids out for holidays in term time. both are a choice, not a legal requirement or an imperative. they wont die if they don't do it.

if we respect peoples right to religion why cant we respect peoples right to a family life .

HopefulAnxiety · 16/10/2015 14:40

Pacific and red I agree that there are non-religious cultural reasons for term time holiday, and I would agree that schools should allow for that.

teacherwith2kids · 16/10/2015 14:40

Pacific, that wasn't quite the point I was trying to make. Memmymeister said that religion was a choice - and from the tone of her post, I deduced that it was not a choice that she valued or made for herself. I was just pointing out that there were choices that she probably makes - to give Christmas presents, to maybe buy Easter eggs - that are, at heart, religious choices, and that she might feel somewhat aggrieved if she was told no longer to make such choices, or asked not to exopecrt anyone to fit round those choices. For example, if someone asked her to work on Christmas Daty, she might feel aggrieved, because for her it is a significant day. Whereas she does not approve of others wanting to be able to adapt their lives around days that are equally special in their own calendars.

redstrawberry10 · 16/10/2015 14:40

There is some guidance, but a lot of the situations that people are bringing up here are covered within that guidance.

Because, as the whole religion discussion has indicated, the guidance isn't equal handed between different situations. Religion trumps all, Christianity gets a free pass altogether on account that those are holidays anyway, and skiers should piss off.

Degustibusnonestdisputandem · 16/10/2015 14:42

I haven't read all of the thread yet, and I'm sure many of you will condemn this: but we are taking DTDs (4 years old) to Australia for the whole of February, to visit my large extended family, most of whom we haven't seen for almost 3 years. My parents and one of my sisters have working farms, so they are going to learn a heck of a lot in that time (& I'll help them write a diary of the trip). There are many reasons we aren't going over the summer holiday, not least of which it's a busy time on both farms.

redstrawberry10 · 16/10/2015 14:42

if we respect peoples right to religion why cant we respect peoples right to a family life.

exactly. Religion is less of choice than having these idiotic laws.

teacherwith2kids · 16/10/2015 14:43

"I have to have this week off to go on a pilgrimage"

Do you expect to have time off work around Christmas?

HopefulAnxiety · 16/10/2015 14:46

mummy it's really not the same. And how is culture a choice?? You sound like a horribly ignorant person. Maybe you don't have very strong cultural ties of your own so you don't understand it, but others do.

Christian British culture and religion is already catered for so it appears to not be cultural/religious - it just looks like part of normal life. But that doesn't mean it isn't cultural and religious.

Bear in mind that religion is LEGALLY protected. You have the right to a family life but that doesn't necessarily require a holiday in term time.

mummymeister · 16/10/2015 14:46

I often work on Christmas day teacher and I regularly work on a sunday . I imagine you don't. I also often work during over "religious" festivals.

I don't disagree with people wanting to adapt their lives round their special days. what I disagree with is the attitude that if you want to have time off in school term time for a religious reason this is fine. if you want to have time off for Christian holidays this is fine too because they are already given. but if you want to have time off for something that is equally important to you, ie time with your family when you are self employed work stupid hours and are never with your kids during school hols because of it, then according to the law this is NOT fine.

redstrawberry10 well put.