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AIBU?

AIBU to tell you it is not illegal to take your child out of school to go on holiday

509 replies

Pseudonym99 · 16/10/2015 02:40

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-34543101

OP posts:
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teacherwith2kids · 16/10/2015 12:38

Pacific, you're probably right. The ones that make me sigh are the families who fight tooth and nail (including temporary moves, using relatives' addresses etc) to get their child into a particular school 'because it's the best' and then take their child out for term-time holidays every year 'because what they do at primary isn't really important and I know best'!!

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PacificMouse · 16/10/2015 12:42

Which is even more crazy because if something should matter it IS primary school where you lay all the foundations for learning....

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teacherwith2kids · 16/10/2015 12:46

I agree - in secondary, you will mostly miss 'content', which is quite easy to pick up. In primary, a LOT of what is taught is skills / processes (how to read, how to add, how to design a fair test) and these are much harder to fill gaps in.

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Nataleejah · 16/10/2015 12:48

PacificMouse,
But that is actually true. When i was at uni, i met a lot of mature students, like 40s-50s. They've doing whatever in life. Some been in army, others did whatever, one guy had been in prison. Its never too late to decide that you want to go to uni.
Of course, its easier for those who had it successful in their youth, BUT a lot of kids drop out of uni because they had not been mature enough to make a right choice, only been pressured by parents.

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Basketofchocolate · 16/10/2015 12:52

Does 'need/want' cover the parents too? The child may not need a holiday, but perhaps the parents do. To mend a relationship, to deal with a life event, etc. A happy, stable home environment will no doubt do far better for the kid than the missed week in school. However, those are not the acceptable circumstances allowed, or most likely parents would like to discuss with the HT.

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DrasticAction · 16/10/2015 12:55

Seeyounearertime Fri 16-Oct-15 06:19:45

^ yes totally.

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DrasticAction · 16/10/2015 12:56

A happy, stable home environment will no doubt do far better for the kid than the missed week in school*

This a million.

I also always see changes in dc when been away, they grow as people, as they absorb the different experiences...

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teacherwith2kids · 16/10/2015 13:00

Basket, it depends on the lead time, doesn't it? At no point in the school year are you ever more than 8 weeks from a holiday, often much less, and booking times for many holidays are of this order of magnitude.

There ARE some circumstances where a break might need to be taken IMMEDIATELY - I can think of one involving the transfer of custody following a tragic death - but many others would be equally effective at meeting the parents' needs in the next school holiday time. Remember we are not saying 'children should not have great holidays in holiday time', just 'children should, wherever possible, be in school during school terms'.

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Sirzy · 16/10/2015 13:05

I don't think a sticking plaster holiday will do much to help in a lot of those situations tbh. Not long term anyway.

You can always do a weekend away or wait 6 weeks max until the next holiday.

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TaliZorah · 16/10/2015 13:09

I'm just amazed schools think they should be able to dictate to parents how to bring up their kids

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DrasticAction · 16/10/2015 13:11

I'd be interested to know how much of another culture or of another country children experience on those holidays

Do they actually learn anything about another language, the history of the country, geology, geography or the environment in that country? Or will they settle on the beach, eat as much food they are already used to, continue to speak English, visit a few amusement areas and go home?


Mine do yes.

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DrasticAction · 16/10/2015 13:13

I find such posts repugnant and awful really ^ such a nasty horrid attitude one hopes posters are not teachers.

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teacherwith2kids · 16/10/2015 13:17

"I'm just amazed schools think they should be able to dictate to parents how to bring up their kids"

To be fair, I don't think that expecting children to be in school during term time IS 'dictating how you bring up your kids'. You are expecting the school to educate your children, and in return we expect them to be there for us to educate.

For all the time they are with you - 3.30pm - 8.45 am, every weekend, and for the 13-14 weeks of the school holidays, we are not dictating anything to you at all about how you bring up your children, where you take them, or where they should be (we might occasionally make a comment about 'they seem, rather tired' or 'I was a bit worried to see Little Johnny still out on the streets on his scooter, alone, at 10.30 last night', but we accept we have no power to change that).

But between the hours of 9 and 3.15, we would like them to be in school, so that we can do our job of educating them - which is why you sent them to school in the first place.

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Shutthatdoor · 16/10/2015 13:21

I'm just amazed schools think they should be able to dictate to parents how to bring up their kids

They aren't.

Would you says the same about someone at work who has to be there at certain times? Is that 'dictating' too?

I'm 'amazed' Tali That you think that no one should be involved in children's lives apart from the parents which you make clear from posts here and elsewhere

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backinthebox · 16/10/2015 13:22

Teacherwith2kids, it is quite possible for parents to go for a whole year without being able to get the school hols off, and I have colleagues who have worked nearly every weekend for the last couple of years. Our rostering system is extremely complex and uses mainly seniority to award the work (i.e. those who have been there longest get the pick of the work) so the junior pilots get the crap weekend and low value work, with the knowledge they will one day get more senior and get better work. The change in retirement age in 2006 from 55 to 65 now means there is a bulge of pilots sitting at the top and the forecast movement onwards and upwards has stagnated for a decade. Those at the bottom have been in the worst place for much longer than they expected to be.

Wrt leave, we are given points based on the popularity of the week in question, and those who have the best weeks one year have to 'buy' them with their points. The points are very heavily skewed in favour of not taking the main holiday periods off. To make matters worse, in recent years (coincident with the ban on term time holidays, perhaps?) the summer, Easter and Christmas holidays have become ridiculously busy, and to deal with this (and other factors too complex to go into here) there has been occasional 'shaping' of the weeks leave available i.e. there might be more weeks available in June or September than are available in August.

All of this together means that, yes - it IS possible for someone in my job to go all the way through a year without seeing their children at a weekend (at all, if you are on a tour away) or having leave in the school holidays. That kind of person - and it does take an educated, intelligent person to become a pilot - will probably say 'fuck it, I'm taking my kids away for a week in term time.' I realise this is more info than you need, but I felt it necessary to explain how it works for us (the people who will be flying you around in those lovely school weeks off!) as there are so many people who still seem stuck with 'but you MUUUUUuuuust be able to get a week off! Surely!'

I only know about my own industry in depth, but I find it quite easy to imagine that there are many other jobs out there which present similar difficulties. Obviously it is easy to tar everyone with the same brush and pour scorn on parents who want to spend their precious days off with their children before they are too old for it, but not everyone is the same. It cuts both ways though - I've seen so many replies from teachers on MNs defending their profession when a parent says their child has spent the last days of term watching DVDs or playing board games. Lets just remember that while a child will probably spend 16 years in education, and it needs to be a partnership between parents and school. Working together - that is not just blindly doing what school say because they are teachers and they know best. The vast majority of parents have their children's best interests at heart, and do not knowingly damage their education. But it is simply not possible to fit all aspects of every adult who has a child's life around school all of the time, even with the best will in the world.

Childhood is an amalgamation of experiences. Not all of those experiences are at school. While school provided me with a basic education it was my experiences outside of school that have lead my siblings and to where we are today. Not one of us would be where we are as a simple result of just going to school. Our parents instilled ambition, wanderlust and hard work among many other qualities in us that a school where the teen pregnancy rate was higher than the success rate for uni applications was simply unable to. So I send my children to school, and support and encourage them there. But goddamit I will take them out for carefully chosen family time and adventure when I see fit - and it is so much easier if I am able to have the discussion of when will be better for the school like an adult rather than being made to feel naughty for doing it.

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HarveySchlumpfenburger · 16/10/2015 13:27

Are they dictating how you bring up your children or how you educate them? Which is what you asked them to do when you enrolled them in the state school system.

Drastic, that may be true of your children, but it isn't true of the majority taking term time holidays. It's not really the children of Mners that are a massive issue.

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wol1968 · 16/10/2015 13:31

backinthebox excellent post. I see so much sanctimonious judginess from teachers in RL who blithely assume that everyone works the same hours they do, unaware that some parents always have to work weekends and, due to the nature of the business, are not allowed to take time off at Christmas or Easter. And don't get me started on the ones who think there's always a SAHM at home all day. Angry

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Notso · 16/10/2015 13:32

Not quite teacher Most children get homework to do after school and at weekends. Even during the holidays.
The only time I have had a serious disagreement with my child's teacher was when my 8 year old was penalised for not doing homework during the holidays because we were away on holiday.
I am happy to stick to the rules even if it means we don't go on holiday as often. I'm not happy to take materials to make a scale model of a Tudor house, a recreation of a famous work of art and a patriotic cupcake to Spain.

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PacificMouse · 16/10/2015 13:38

wol to be fair, teacher ASKED the question of 'how often does it happen' saying she didn't know.

It is true that there is a lot of assumptions around, from both sides.

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Alibabsandthe40Musketeers · 16/10/2015 13:41

We took DS1 out this year for a week, and will do again next year - and also now DS2 as he started school in September.

They will both be enrolled in ski-school, they will be encouraged to speak french as much as possible.

DS1 has always been a physically timid child, and has lacked confidence. The change in him after a week on a pair of skis this year was astonishing, he is honestly like a different child, and it has given him the confidence to participate in other things that he wouldn't try before.

I know school won't authorise it, but I am not asking their permission, i'm just telling them that we are taking the children out that week.

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teacherwith2kids · 16/10/2015 13:41

Holiday homework - work of the devil. Never set it, luckily my children have been to schools that don't set it either.

backinthebox - I know that some parents genuinely can't get a week off in any of the school holidays (though you won't be flying me around - as I am of course always blessed with having holidays in holiday time, we don't get out of the UK much, though as a previous poster with teaching parents said, it's the family time that matters....nothing so bonding as a REALLY wet holiday in Wales!).

My questions earlier in the thread were about what proportion of the English schoolchild population that description covered, because I know that there are some, but my experience in different schols to date says that there are few .. and as with many professions (teaching is the same) a few people who try to claim something is true for them when it is not, can raise suspicions towards many others who are genuinely in that situation.

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DrasticAction · 16/10/2015 13:46

Magistrates ruled that because Mr Platt's seven-year-old daughter was only away from school for eight days, she was still attending 'regularly' and he had not broken the law

^ says it all, child has regular and great attendance.

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teacherwith2kids · 16/10/2015 13:46

"I know school won't authorise it, but I am not asking their permission, i'm just telling them that we are taking the children out that week."

I have no problem at all with that. It is the 'you must authorise this week of holidayl' attitude that has me grinding my teeth!

To repeat:

  • Schools should AUTHORISE absences that are NEEDED.
  • Schools should NOT AUTHORISE absences that are just WANTED, but parents can take their children out without authorisation.
  • The relevant authorities should support, or if necessary prosecute, those for whom unauthorised absence is a persistent problem.
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DrasticAction · 16/10/2015 13:52

I see so much sanctimonious judginess from teachers in RL who blithely assume that everyone works the same hours they do

I think you have a hit the nail on the head.

I fear schools are little bubbles and teachers treated like saints within.

The simply have no idea about business and how they run or what people do in the real world.

I remember our head saying " but we have the same prices hikes you do, we face the same costs"

OH YES< but YOU do it on about lets see £40, or £50 GRAND MORE THAN US> even the most basic teacher earns more than us right now.

They just have no idea.

You can tell this from the way they never tell you dates for navity until last min, change other dates on a whim, call you into school at a moments notice, they have no idea.

Its a little bubble with us all pussy footing round it. Thankfully parents are being encouraged to be more demanding.

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redstrawberry10 · 16/10/2015 13:52

I just don't understand the froth about this, it's simple. There is a legal responsibility to ensure your DCs are educated. There are various options available to achieve that - all of which have regulations, restrictions and rules.

that's what people are questioning. The regulations and rules. We know there are regulations and rules. The question is whether they are appropriate.

Looked at from a 'common good' perspective, everyone in the class suffers (and disproportionately, those children who need most adult assistance to make progress) because adult attention has had to be diverted to this constant 'catch up' process.

I naughtily took my child out of school. She is miles ahead of the class, and I made sure she did the work.

Other parents may not do this, and I agree it's the parent's responsibility to keep the child caught up, not the teacher's.

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