AIBU to tell you it is not illegal to take your child out of school to go on holiday

[Pseudonym99]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-34543101

jelly Do HT's think that fining parents works as a deterrent, then?

What has been mentioned is that it hasn't helped with the children whose progress does suffer through non-attendance, the persistent-one-or-two-days-every-week-or-so-and-usually-late people. But there are usually other issues going on there too.

It seems to a bit of a deterrent for some of the going on holiday people and so does up overall attendance by a percent or so but doesn't actually help with the problem it was intended to.

if i were the lawyer who tried to get Mr. Plat fined , i wd sound as pissed off as SAC does. Have i guessed right?

Um no, amarmai, not that well educated, employed or paid I'm afraid - and neither is DH, before you ask

SouthAmericanCuisine
"In most LAs, discretion for issuing fines has been delegated to HT"

Could you provide a link to that?

jefferson. Not a single published reference, no - but I've got a leaver arch file full of LA policies that I researched as part of my last job.

Local authorities sick of this nonsense too: www.theguardian.com/education/2015/oct/21/schools-should-to-be-able-to-approve-family-holidays-in-term-time-lga-fines

The LGA has regurgitated a very similar press release as the one published this time last year - in response to the DfEs data release - they've not said anything new!

Does it have to be new? They are repeating that they don't agree.

You often need to repeat yourself when people refuse to hear sense because they work for the DfEdon't listen.

The BBC had just made a compete nonsense of reporting this, or the LGA itself doesn't understand the system.

a) HT decides whether or not to authorise (can authorise, for a number of reasons, including holidays of any length in exceptional circumstances)
b) LEA sets fines policy, including whether they use them at all.
c) Schools must report those with unauthorised absences, and if they pass who pass the LEA's trigger point, then LEA fine them.
d) excessive absences (all reasons) are the responsibility of the EWO (an LEA function), who is responsible for deciding on support/sanctions for the family.

The HT does not fine the family, and I'm sure I've read on MN that there is at least one LEA which does not impose fines at all.

So either LEAs don't get this (a system unchanged since 2003 so a shocking lapse), or LGA doesn't get it (in which case it's a major mistake to put out a press release), or BBC is being remarkably crap to the point of being misleading.

meditrina It's not quite as simple as that.

The LA does have authority to issue fines - and will do so, based on the attendance figures reported to them by the school.

LAs also have the authority to delegate the issuing of fines to HTs. Most have done so (see my post from earlier this morning).

LA must publish a policy relating to the issuing of fines in their area. Schools also have to publish a policy. Schools are not required to adopt the LA policy.

HTs issue fines at their discretion (in line with school policy) and notify the LA that they have done so.

LA makes the decision whether or not to prosecute parents who have not paid the fine within the required time frame, or whether to withdraw the FPN.

jelly The NGA had the ideal opportunity to make their point during the consultation that took place earlier this year about the proposed Single Inspection Framework that has now been adopted by OFSTED.

It has been the largest change to school inspection regime in at least a decade and was widely debated and consulted on - and changes were made in response to the consultation responses.

I can't find a single response to the consultation that refers to the section about inspection of pupil attendance at school.

If the NGA and other groups were so concerned about the impact of these demands on schools, why didn't they engage in the process? why object after the fact, rather than respond to a direct request for opinions when it was invited?

Sorry, it's the "Common Inspection Framework", not single, and here are the responses to the consultation:

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/400625/Better_inspection_for_all_consultation_response_FINAL_2_.pdf

There was a large response from a pressure group who wanted more focus on inspection of Music provision in schools - a good opportunity for them to have their point considered.
which makes you wonder why an organisation like the NGA, or any of the the Teaching Unions, didn't take the opportunity to challenge the underlying reason why schools feel pressured to issue fines for holidays.

This is all very big brotherish and I can't believe any of us stand for it.

Society has a role to play when it comes to clear abuse and neglect. We don't want children being abused or simply forgotten. In those cases, there is a role for government to step in, intervene and sort the situation.

In all other cases, my children are my business and my decision. Back off. We have fallen asleep and allowed EWOs to roam our streets in some crazy 1984 scenario.

strawberry. You may well be right. The ASCL statement this morning claimed that this policy is part of the overall strategy to create a world leading education system.

I don't ever remember being asked, as a citizen, whether that was something that I supported.

ASCL can claim what they like about the policy. So can I - it's stupid.

And I didn't have to ask you, as a citizen, whether that is something you supported either.

After arguing the toss with everybody and defending the gov to the hilt, you now reverse and agree with us, sac?!

My view is that term-time holiday for something such as a one-off event may be OK, and to visit far-flung relatives especially if they cannot travel should be acceptable. Going to sit on a beach somewhere or going skiing to my mind is not.

The practice would reduce quickly at primary level if such absence affected the chance of getting a secondary school place. After all, if parents are prepared to go to church weekly for a place at a faith school, a couple of missed holidays would be nothing in comparison.

No, I don't agree with "everybody" - but I do think that decision taken to establish a world leading education system should have been openly debated - because it has led to decisions and policies that (it appears) the majority of the voting public disagree with.

I'm comfortable with being in the minority -but I won't sympathise with parents who are fined, and I certainly can't sympathise with organisations who make meaningless media statements rather that act when they have the opportunity to influence change.

I would support efforts to create a world leading education system, but I think it's unlikely in my lifetime, because it is not yet welcomed by the majority.

There is absolutely NO proof that fining parents who take their cc out of school is going to lead to "a world class educational system" No one has been debating that ridiculous assumption , which now , abracadabra after 20 pages, you pull out of the hat ! You are trying to shift the goal posts.

Not me, amarmai! jelly linked to the recent LGA press release up thread, and in quoting the ASCL response to that. It was in most of the papers yesterday, hence why I didn't refer to it previously on this thread - they didn't say it until Tuesday!

The LGA has appealed for flexibility in the fines system, and the association that represents school and college leaders responded by saying that preventing parents from taking their DCs from school to go on holiday was a necessary part of creating a "world leading" education system.

It's actually clarified the issue for me. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know whether these policies are required to achieve what the ASCL is aiming for, but what I do know is that if there had been a public debate about it and it had been made clear that was what was required, then many parents would have objected, and that aspiration may well have been moderated.

Typo in the first line - I'm quoting the ASCL, not in quoting

As someone who was home educated, this is silly. There is no legal requirement to send your child to school, you know whether your child can have a week off in term time or not. Parenting is best left to parents.

donthave the difference is, that when a home educated child has a holiday, the child's educators can plan for it, and maximise learning before, during and after.

The current format of the state education system is that pupils are required to make progress towards predetermined goals in the classroom every day - if a child misses a day, or a week, or more, they will be at a disadvantage compared to their peers, who will have continued to progress in their absence.

Yes, they may be able to "catch up" if the absence was not a long one - but they have to be supported to do so. Teachers say that this is at the expense of the other DCs in the class.

Can I just fix your last sentence there South?
Some teachers say that this is at the expense of the other children in the class, others say it doesn't affect the other children in the class at all.