AIBU to keep punishing my 6 year old

[Arrowfanatic]

My daughter is 6, and she still wets herself daily.

She will sit on the sofa and just wee herself, she will sit at school and just wee the carpet. She wees her bed constantly.

This has been an almost daily occurrence since we started potty training when she was almost 3.

She has two younger siblings who are totally dry. She is ruining her bed, we have to buy new bedding constantly as the smell just stops washing out. She refuses pyjama pants, says she's not a baby. When she wees herself in the day time she says she just didn't want to stop what she was doing

It's been 4 years, you name it I've tried it when it comes to solving this. We even see a consultant at the hospital for it, there is no physical problem that may be causing this.

I'm ashamed to say after she wet the duvet we got her yesterday that I told her to go and find somewhere else to live; I'm not proud of it but unless you've been dealing with what I have every day for 4 years and the endless attempts to get it resolved you just can't understand.

I told her today she will be going to bed every day after dinner this week and won't be allowed to go to her after school club.

If I thought she had no control it would be different but she can stay dry when she wants. She'll stay with grandparents in their house and be totally dry. She can be out with us all day and say she needs a wee and hold it till we find one. So its pure lazy behaviour that causes this.

AIBU with punishing though? I honestly don't know what else I can do. I've tried EVERYTHING and believe me when I say everything I mean it. I've seen health visitors, incontinence nurses, reward charts, ignoring, praising, getting her to wash her own stuff, taking away toys, incentives, bribes, shouting, crying, begging, helping me potty training her siblings, explaining that wetting herself is what causes her never ending soreness down "there", I've had family involved to help, the hospital, teachers, we've done stickers, stars. Over 4 years I don't now know where to turn.

Personally, I don't know how you managed to keep your calm for so long and didn't snap before! I have no advice, just wanted to say that I probably think she needs to be looked at again by specialists. DitheringDiva's advice sounds really good to me.

Just a few suggestions after only just getting an 8yo to stop having accidents.

A routine in place around toileting might help her OP. Eg she goes as soon as she gets up. She goes again before you leave the house. you must get teachers on board with this and come up with a way to remind her to use the loo. regularly. before break, before lunch, after lunch, mid afternoon, as soon as she gets home etc etc

She could be fearful of the loo. Hand dryers (this is the reason my boy wet himself when out for a long time. He is scared of the loud noise of the hand dryers), the chemical smell from the loo cleaners could be overwhelming her. (I feel sick when I smell bleach and it makes me wheezy)

A wrist watch with a regular alarm might help as a reminder every 90 minutes ish to start would be good.

Also check just how much she is drinking. she might not be drinking enough (so the bladder isn't being stretched to hold a good amount) or she could be drinking too much and just needing to go more often.

Is she drinking squash, fruit juices etc? if so I would ditch those for a while. Some fruit juices can irritate the bladder meaning she will go much more often. Stick to only water for a while.

Bring in rewards for using the loo, sticker charts, points towards an end of week treat. Focus on remaining dry in the daytime first and put her back in pull ups only when she is in bed (my boy wore them until 7 1/2, there is no shame in it at all) because doing both could be too much for her right now.

Completely ditch the punishments because they are not working.

I did all this and the most I get now is the DC will have a dribble accident (slightly damp pants) rather than full on puddle all the way through clothes.

And I was also told to avoid irritants to the bladder, orange, blackcurrant, fizzy drinks, caffeine and tomatoes (raw). Once it was pointed out to me I could see that DD was running to the loo about 10 mins after drinking blackcurrant cordial.

Try to get her to drink more (I was always trying to limit my DDs drinks but this is the wrong strategy) - apparently the aim is 7 drinks of 150ml sort if size and 7 wees a day.

My now 7 yr old was an absolute nightmare to toilet train. It was more pooing than weeing with him which was even more unpleasant.
I tried everything with him. He was simply too lazy to interrupt what he was doing to go to the toilet. He never did it at school where his friends would find out. I lost my temper repeatedly with him as well so can totally sympathise with you.
Other people would make out it was something we were doing wrong when their little darlings were trained from 18 months.
He did it for the last time when he was six and a half at my brother's wedding on the bouncy castle in his page boy outfit. He was enjoying himself so much but I took him straight home as a punishment (H was working abroad and it was also my birthday,joy!)
He never did it again.

OP have you been referred to the eneuresis clinic? You mention a child psychologist/behaviour person but not a specialist in wee issues. If not please go back to your GP and ask to be referred. You could also ask your school nurse for support - ime they are great on this issue.

Even if this started as a behavioural issue, by now it has almost certainly developed into a physical one.

I'm really surprised at people saying their dc has been checked and there is no physical problem. When we saw the paediatrician with the same issue, there were no tests as such, we just discussed what was happening and they said right we need to retrain the bladder to recognise when it needs to go.

The basic advice we were given was up fluid intake in the earlier part of the day (but not too much after 6pm); regular routine for going to the toilet - hourly at first if necessary, working towards 2 hourly in time; avoid citrus, blackcurrant and caffeine (all can irritate the bladder); also double voiding - so when they think they have finished, they should try again, to make sure they are fully emptying the bladder.

The other thing worth checking is does she have any issues with constipation? An overfull bowel can put pressure on the bladder and cause accidents that way too.

Oh and also reward the behaviour you want rather than the outcome - so reward for drinking and going to the toilet according to the schedule rather than for dry pants.

This did all work for us but it took months - there is no quick fix solution here. I do honestly understand your frustration. Hope you can get it sorted.

OP I think that sounds a good plan. But I wouldn't promise not to get angry again - because you might if it happens on a bad day/at a bad time etc (unless you are a saint and I don't think any of us are). You should only promise to try and not get angry.
(I would tell her how you feel and explain why it makes you angry/sad. And ask her how (the wetting) makes her feel...)

What everyone else said and ring ERIC to see what help there is for YOU. A lot of people have this sort of problem, but it is hard to find them. It is hard to deal with but it is not your fault and not your dd's.

A Dfriend had this issue with both her children and it was the main reason she stopped at 2.

There are lots of reasons why she could be having problems which the medics have not found yet, so keep looking.

I would imagine the school will refer her to the Ed.Psych. if she is constantly wetting herself and refuses to deal with it; there is definitely a problem, and you need some help and support in strategies to overcome it. The fact that she can control herself at her Grandparents is interesting; this seems to be some sort of battle of wills. No helpful suggestions, sorry.

Dithering, can I ask why you don't tell your DD to go to the toilet even if she's doing the wee dance? I'm not trying to be unpleasant, I just don't understand the reasoning. My little brother used to do the wee dance (we called it hoaching) and he would get sent off to the loo by whoever noticed him. He is now nearly 14 and still wets at night, although he's on some sort of medicine to help (sorry that I don't know the name of it). A lot of the things people have mentioned - the bed alarm that goes off - it would wake the entire house except for him. He would be fast asleep, really loud alarm going off, in a puddle of wee, and still not wake up. However, he was dry in the day and I think that was mainly because he was continually sent to the toilet.

please check about the constipation too. That was the problem with my daughter and movicol sachets stopped the wetting completely.

TooExtraImmatureCheddar Ask away, I don't mind! I don't tell her because it sends a signal to her that I have an issue with her wetting her pants, and I don't want her to think I have an issue with her wetting her pants - it draws attention to the whole problem, and makes her think that it's my problem to get her to the toilet and not hers. She also sees it as a control thing, so often when I've told/asked her to go to the toilet, she's pointblank refused and then wet herself five minutes later, whereas if I don't say anything, she is more likely (she doesn't always get there in time though) to go of her own accord.

Haven't rtft but just wanted to say I have been there, it is extremely worrying and frustrating in equal measure and you have my full sympathy. I used pull ups for my DD but she was still reguarly wetting the bed till about 9, the wetting at school stopped when she was about 7. I went to the head in tears about it after trying everything as you have done. She was also "hand flapping" and after some investigations it was established she had bifocal epilepsy which she grew out of. I suspect the two were linked. Wetting is so very complex and its so difficult to nail down an exact cause when they are this young. One thing that did help was her teacher discreetly did a chart for her and she eventually got a head teacher award. The other thing I did was I packed a rucksack full of clean pants and trousers and encouraged her with the help of the teacher to sort it out herself. She is 13 and fine now. Good luck with it.

When I was little I was the same. I stopped wetting when I was around 7. I remember my mum lifting me up for a cuddle whilst I was playing with toys and I decided to wet myself whilst my mum was holding me because I thought it was funny. I wasn't punished as such but the shock on my poor mums face is something I have never forgot.

I used to wet myself because I was busy playing/reading. I couldn't be bothered to stop playing - it was laziness on my part. I didn't want to move or walk to the toilet because I was happy and comfortable where I was thank you very much....

In the end drinks were stopped after a set time. My mum even woke me up before she went to bed and sat me on the loo whilst I was still half asleep and told me to wee then put me back to bed.

At school I wet myself until the other kids took the mickey out of me and I smelled of wee and no one would play with me. I think then I began to realise I really must start taking care of myself and my toilet habits or I wouldn't have any friends.

Does she have lots of friends OP?

I dont think reverting her back to the nappy stage will help to be honest.

I know that's not what you want to here OP and I really do feel for you and I can imagine how you feel as that's exactly how my mum must of felt washing the wee out of bed sheets constantly.

My siblings even started to call me polecat because I smelt of wee all the time. Maybe a little tough love is in order from her siblings and friends? Worked for me.

Diva if it's control-related then it can be an anxiety thing. I can promise you as a former wetter that nobody likes wetting themselves, it's not a case of 'can't be bothered' - it's that the brain can't prioritise it. Things like CBT can help her learn to prioritise it.

OP, I had continence problems until I was year 2 or so, and wet the bed until I was 15. Please get your daughter checked out for anxiety and/or ADHD/ADD (the latter without hyperactivity). I can promise you that it's not laziness or a choice - wetting yourself is horrible and humiliating, you don't do it if you can help it. Sadly my parents assumed I was doing it on purpose and it was very traumatising. Things like anxiety or ADHD have physical consequences as much as physical illnesses, and they are still illnesses making things like wetting not a choice. As I said to Diva, they mean that the brain struggles to prioritise things like going to the toilet, the brain reacts differently. ADHD is different wiring aka neurodivergence like autism, but with anxiety you are constantly in fight or flight mode so panicking takes priority. It's also surprisingly easy to hide!

Also, is there any chance of Aspergers? It's often underdiagnosed in girls, and obsessing over one thing which means every day things get ignored is something I've found my adult Aspie friends do a lot.

Can I second the alarm - this is what got DS finally getting up and going to the toilet so he didn't just keep doing what he was doing and wetting himself.

Nursery were quite against it, but just getting him in the habit of going when the bell went off for a couple of weeks seemed to set the habit in him, and he dramatically improved (he still occasionally does it, but it's very rare now)

If she doesn't want to miss game or tv, turn them off or put them away for the rest of the day if she wets!

Miss 2 mins or miss the rest of the night?

I agree with nappies/pull ups for a couple of weeks.

As soon as she realises she gets more attention for dry pull ups than a wet floor/bed, the better!

She won't want to wear pull ups around her friends, so might start going in the proper places sooner. Her friends must notice the smell of wee anyway!

ERIC sell more discreet inserts for pants, rather than having nappies, by the way.

I would really look into trying Movicol - my DD didn't seem constipated, but after discussion with ERIC , I realised that I didn't know that her form of it could be constipation (doing several poos a day can weirdly be a sign of constipation). Relieving the constipation relieves pressure on the bladder, which can cause the bladder to empty without warning.

Please stop being cross with her. I really doubt it is deliberate or laziness.

Why I'm sure my friends could notice the smell of wee. Surprisingly enough it didn't cure my anxiety disorder causing the wetting but made it worse.

OP this thread has made me cry! it has brought up issues from childhood..i too was the child that peed...there was nothing physically wrong with me, it was never intentional and was never about laziness. if i could have controlled the situation i would have, it was awful...being sent to bed early, not allowed to play, having the issue brought up with other people didn't help, if anything it made it worse...i was basically just a very shy little girl who had no confidence or self esteem, and the punishments just made things worse. i had no wish to ever to draw attention to myself and the simple act of standing up in front of others (even at home) and walking to the loo, or having to, god forbid, put up my hand in class and then ask to use the loo, was simply just too terrifying a prospect. it was never a conscious choice to wet myself but if i could not discreetly get to the loo at the right time then that was the result, and i would try to avoid being too close to people for the rest of the day and would hope and hope that pants would be dry by the time i got home as i knew that a dinnerless bedtime would ensue. what caused this situation i do not remember, but i quite clearly remember being made to feel like an utter nuisance as a child. i have, as a result, spent much of my adult life trying very hard to be a people pleaser (something that a breakdown and counselling a number of years ago has helped) and have a still lingering serious case of bladder shyness that i battle with. so if it is worth anything, my advice would be to focus on your precious daughters good points, strengthen her confidence, not conspicuously, just be accepting of her as the whole person she is, wet pants and all. I'm very certain that she will stop this, it is only going to be a temporary issue, a very hard and frustrating one for you to deal with i appreciate, washing bedding etc daily becomes draining (I've been there), but please try to avoid punishing her, I'm sure she is punishing herself and worrying inside enough for you both.

Have you tried tried this kind of thing as a reminder to go even if she does not feel like going?
www.amazon.co.uk/WobL-Watch-Childrens-Vibrating-Training/dp/B00HFRR9Y6/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1444738183&sr=8-5&keywords=watch+alarm+vibrate
You could set it to go off during playtime at school and regular intervals at home.

We're travelling this road ourselves with DS. I completely relate with how wearing and demoralising it is, I truly do.

DS is getting better, but slowly. It helps that he loves his nurse at the enuresis clinic. He likes to impress her with how well he is doing, and he pays attention to what she advises him. He promised her that he would go to the loo as soon as he got what she calls 'the first signal'. He slips, but with reminders goes back to doing it. He too is bright, and really talking and analysing it with him has worked as much as any other tactic, which is to say quite a bit, but very slowly.

DH and I were asked to be as neutral as possible about wetting. Not to overpraise going to the loo, and not to get angry when DS slipped back into wetting. We've tried really hard, and this too seems to have made a difference. I've involved DS in clearing up (he takes his own wet clothes to a tub we have specifically for them, when he wets at night he knows to pull the covers back, then come and tell me) and we have gently pointed out that wetting creates work for all of us so is best avoided.

We have got DS's class teachers and teaching assistants to send him off to the loo at certain stages of the day to avoid incidents, but he still isn't reliably dry enough to do sports clubs etc. In those situations he wees himself spectacularly and regularly.

There just aren't any short cuts, it's a bloody slog.

N.b. do you use Napisan in the washing machine? Helps kill the odours and get rid of stains.

It is interesting that knicker wetting and constipation go together. I have both those problems

No idea about daytime, maybe a potty in every room so she can go at the very last minute? Regular prompting? My 6yr old is still in nappies at night. Was dry over the summer holidays a few nights but not often enough to warrant no nappies term time (it's the waking up, changing the bed, getting Ds settled again in the early hours that I don't want to do every night when he has school the next day). Most times I wait until Ds is asleep now so that he is used to going to the loo before he falls asleep.

Pixi2 do you use 'draw sheets'? (a sheet topped by a waterproof layer then another sheet on top of that). They make it possible to remove a wet layer with minimal disturbance to sleepy child and leave them in a dry bed.

She needs to see a therapist. Given her age, I would suggest a play therapist.